GGTharos

I'm not sure why people are wanting to diss the AMRAAM already. It is still a very good, top rate, by some accounts the best air to air missile out there right now.
Meteor is still unproven and for a little while at least it would likely be unwise to get rid of AMRAAMs completely in favor of Meteor.

Jimmy

Because the internet says it goes 25 miles, but the AA-12 will go 60.

GGTharos

I'm pretty sure it kills things as is at say, 25nm (when launched from high on by a supersonic F-15) and actually goes quite a bit farther ...
The 120D should have quite a bit of range on top of that, and even longer when launched at high mach numbers by a raptor.

IIRC the AMRAAM is Mach 4 + launch speed.

Tin Man

GUNNUT, it does seem at first glance to make sense to have only one standard radar AIM but the AMRAAM C-5 is cheaper than the Meteor. An all Meteor inventory would be horrendously expensive. We cannot go with an all AMRAAM stockpile as that would be foolish considering the stake the UK/Europe has in Meteor. Tactically you would have to go for Meteor just because of the undoubted advantage it will have over the C-5 version in terms of higher terminal speed/no escape zone. The AMRAAM "D" or "C-8" is a different matter.

Meteor testing is going well and the missile has already been test fired from the testbed Gripen successfully. The ramjet motor worked as advertised.

I have no problems with C-5, there is absolutely nothing wrong with AMRAAM and I would have no issues seeing it used with UK F-35`s at all in preference to Meteor.
The Typhoon as said, is slated for air defence and has the priority with the longer range Meteor. I don`t really see the justification for F-35 to carry the Meteor with maybe the exception of RN aircraft, only IF the Navy has it`s own aircraft. This seems unlikely with the Joint Force doctrine currently employed. In any case, I can`t see the F-35 carrying anything other than ASRAAM unless they are based on a CVF. Even that could be fantasy with the current funding mess the MOD are in.

There is very little likelihood of the UK buying the AMRAAM "D", not with the European Meteor around and that seems to be an issue.... let`s face it, Europe buys Euro` weapons and the US buys "Made in America", generally at least.

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RAVSTA

So wait. Wasnt this thread about the MKI?

Tin Man

It`s called "topic expansion"!

gunnut

Oh is that what we call it now?

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HistoricalDavid

It's "flexibly lateral expansion of discussion."

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Jimmy

This is a military-themed forum...it needs to be an acronym.

The original topic has FLED.

RAVSTA

My bad

Archer

The designation is actually the N011M. The NO11 was a slotted array radar which NIIP Tikhomirov ditched and the program rolled onto the Bars/ N011M instead. The N011M is in use with the Su-30 MKI, MKM, MKA. Of the 3, the Indian Air Force will be the largest operator of the type with 230 MKIs on order. (Though theres a possibility that an AESA will be used midway during the program).

The IAF has a decent ADGES system, which is being upgraded as of recent years. More radars - of various kinds are being procured, in substantial numbers. But most importantly, the IAF plans for an AWACs fleet of 3 Phalcons (more might be ordered once the initial batch proves itself) backed up by some 3 locally designed AEW&C systems for defense in depth.

So all in all, the MKI/ N011M combo will be used as part of a comprehensive ADGES package.

Coming to weapons and systems, I dont think the aircraft will be used in terms of the classical Russian doctrine at all. Its employment will be more aggressive and less tied to the availability of 24/7 support by other resources, to gain and enforce air superiority and its primary weapon wont be the AA-10 but the AA-12. The AA-10 might be useful though for a marginally longer stick (at least in theory) to use against the opponent. And the IR version (AA-10 ET) could be a better alternative to the AA-11 Archer at slightly longer ranges, though the thing does not have an INS like the Mica, so cant be used for anything fancy like a passive BVR weapon.

In short, for the IAF, the MKI will be its biggest and largest stick, and given the manner in which the fleet retirals have been happening, with MiG-21s, 23's et al going out, the MKI will have to shoulder a large burden covering the gamut of Air Superiority and Strike tasks.

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Archer

Yeah, probably. But the Sentry is waay old now despite all the upgrades etc. Perhaps the Wedgetail is the best AWACs now? Whatever happened to the E-10, will the Sentries be replaced by a new eye?

Archer

F-22, no quibbles- its got stealth and supercruise. But the underlined part may not be representative of the situation today. The Russians- you are correct- still use early Gen Pastel RWRs for the most part, but their newer units use industry standard signal processors and have improved substantially. Plus there are many excellent firms willing to share gear for third party integration- Thales, BAe come to mind..

Jimmy

The E-10 was cut for budgetary reasons. Personally I think it was a good move, because the basic premise behind the platform itself was flawed. As nice as it would be to have so much room inside (it was a 767, MUCH larger than a 707), the E-10 was to combine the AWACS and JSTARS into one platform. I (and a few others) dont really like that idea, because these two jobs have very different requirements...different orbit lengths and locations, different loiter needs, plus the electrical requirements would be an interesting hurdle to overcome.

The Wedgetail isn't really an AWACS, its an AEW&C platform. There are suble differences. From talking to Australians who will form Wedgetail crews (they serve alongside USAF personnel on the E-3 to get their own ideas and experience to apply to their system), the Wedgetail will do a few things better than the E-3, but it operates on a much smaller scale. It has a few perks from the way the radar is designed, but a few drawbacks as well. I guess the best way to describe it is that it does some of the same things as the E-3, and it does some of those things better, but on the whole the E-3 has a much broader mission and more capability.

The E-3s radar is outstanding. When the next block upgrade FINALLY comes out, the entire interior of the jet and computer system will be replaced. A whole new deck, and a much smaller, more efficient computer that can really take advantage of what our jet can do. The Sentry is still the most capable platform of its kind in the world, but Block 40/45 will bring this beast to a whole new level. I've seen the system it will be based upon, and I cant wait to use it for real. Rave reviews from everyone I know who's actually used it.

The airframe itself is solid. Boeing built 707s for close to 50 years, with good reason. The frame was so overengineered that it will take one hell of a beating. The NATO jet that ran off the runway is a prime example. A 767 probably would've lost crewmembers, because the fuselage would've been torn open, possibly into a couple of pieces. On the E-3, it bent at something like a 30* angle and tore a hole in the side. Somebody broke a leg (maybe an arm?) and that was the most severe injury. They take pretty good care of these jets, because there arent many of them, and there's pretty much no way to replace them if we lose any more (one crashed at Elmendorf AFB).

GGTharos

Pastel or Beryoza?
And where can I posisbly find some information on the Pastel?