Rossiman

Im not saying that the NO11P radar is bad, it's actually very good. But when comparing it to the AESA radar, its like comparing a F-18 Super Hornet to Iran's "new" stealth fighter.... LOL

And Adux i am in no way stating that i am smarter than people on here, my god i am 17 years old. I am stating that i do however know A LOT about Radar's and avionics. That is what i am going to school for atm, to design this stuff for are military.

So, hope this clears stuff up people that i was rude to/went off accept my apology.

And if you have anymore questions ask and i will try my best to answer.

Rossiman

Yes, Russian design still hasn't got this concept down yet. Higher output is easier to pick up on enemy radar, if you are using the right setup. With, a powerful radar like the AESA and the stealth of the F-22 it's the perfect package. The Russian radar sends out a higher signal which is picked up on are radars, we then fire a AMRAAM and it's game over for them. With the AESA radar picking out targets from well beyond 150 miles and the AMRAAM being lethal out to 60+- miles its not a good thing for are enemy.

Feanor

Yes. Much more so then anything else I've heard Thank you. So then how do American planes overcome this? By keeping their radars on stand by so that they only detect incoming radar waves but send none themselves? And if so what stops the Flankers from doing the same?

Jimmy

That's an option. If we're in an area where air-to-air combat is expected, there's probably an AWACS in the area getting a good look at everything anyway, so the fighters will know what they're up against even if they're not radiating.

What stops the Flankers from doing this is that there aren't many A-50 Mainstays, and frankly its not a very good platform. Ground-based radars are far more limited by terrain and line-of-sight issues than an airborne platform.

Tronic

Well, the MKIs in these situations will have the Phalcons behind them.

__________________
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Jimmy

Good point...discussing this stuff with Feanor got me into a Russia-US mindset.

I would still say the Sentry is the better platform, though.

MarquezRazor

Okay I am a bit confused now.So will just try to um it up.First lets talk about AIM-120 A,B,C, Mica and AA-10.

Amraam ,Mica , R77 as is other active missiles use 3 types of guidance sequentially.This is how it happens as far as I know it and as it is given in all sorts of aviation books,journals and internet sites I have read.

First the radar detects the target.It needs some sweeps of the target to build up a good picture and make a track file.Newer radars need lesser scans, have better resolution and can scan more volume and faster than older generation slotted arrays to make a good track file fast.Now when you want to deploy an active missile , you dont need to "lock on" but is sufficient even if you are just tracking the target.1st the ARH will fly out on inertial guidance based on the last location obtained by the radar.After some time the missiles datalink port is activated[time bound feature, can be preset,can also be active even while on inertial course].And the missile's direction is radio corrected..again based on the data povided by the radar.Only when the missile is within 10-15 kms of the target the active seeker will fire up and from there on the missile is autonomous or truely fire and forget.

Now AA10[R,RE] is not an active radar missile.But its an semiactive one.It cannot be fired when the radar is in TWS but the radar must be in a lock on mode the entire time the missile is in flight.So the entire time the flight of the R27 depends on the radar.Once the lock is gone during the flight , the missile is effectively "lost".So AA-10 has to use a radar at all stages.

I say again that in all cases the radar with better resolution[which is dependent on power but not necessarily raw power]will be able to detect track and send the missiles on their way faster than opposing lower powered radars.

The RF guidance you are saying about the Amraam is the seeker.Before the seeker is activated, still it has to have radar guidance for its first two phases of flight.Provided that launch doesnt take place too near the target aircraft,and since you said "Given the range of the AIM-120, US radars are optimized for detection quickly without unnecessarily giving away too much counter target information." that gives me some idea about Amraam engagement range.
Agreed.
Agreed again.But the question here is RAM sufficient enough to reduce the RCS by 3/4 times as said by Sukhoi?Maybe they included other systems?As it is there is no dearth of any room on that big airframe.Okay this is getting too much speculatory , so will end it here.Suffice to say Su-30 is comparable to the likes of F-15 and not to F-18 or Rafale or Typhoon.
Well only if
1.you are getting target information from another buddy by data linking
2.Or you are launching it from close enough range so that the seeker goes active right from the start
3.Maybe getting the data from AWACS feed[R-77 ,Mica havent got this feature,AIm-120 A,B havent, not so sure about Aim-120 C]
Yes agreed IR missiles are a whole different ballgame.
I think all ARH can be silent launched as you say it whereby the seeker goes active before launch.Another element of surprise is that since you are only just tracking the bogey and not "locking "him the opponent can be caught off guard.Ofcourse all modern RWRs will detect an incoming ARH when ever its seeker goes online.
Sixty miles!Good God.Where from did you get targetting information at those ranges Sir?
Ivan also has his own toys you know..

wabpilot

Obviously you are unfit for further comment. Stop wasting band with you fool.

tphuang

PLAAF tests showed about 100 km vs 0.1 sqm targets (not just 0.1 sqm frontal view, but <0.1 sqm in most angles). Not as good as advertised, but still better than most radars out there.

Feanor

So in reality it's not a problem of the indigenous Flanker design, it's a problem of employment?

Silent Hunter

Can any Russian missiles launch on passive radar?

MarquezRazor

Unprovoked personal attack.So much for treating others with respect and trying to discuss seriously!

And I will stop posting as soon as any moderator tells me that he thinks I am wasting bandwidth.

And in the meantime

VarSity

The latest Russian fighters do have a data link of some kind, so I would guess its possible given they have another fighter or AWACS to pass them targeting data.

On totally passive radar (no other data being passed) I have no idea, but I hope someone here does...

Feanor

Here's something I found. It sounds fairly interesting, and doesn't mention any passive radar missiles.

''3.8.2. Air-to-air Missiles

Vympel Corporation has designed an extensive range of air-to-air missiles for new Russian fighters. It includes close-range missile R-73 (AA-11 Archer), intermediate-range missile R-27 (AA-10 Alamo), new active radar homing missile R-77 (AA-12 Adder) and long-range missile intended to counter bomber targets R-33 (AA-9 Amos). Both the R-73 and R-27 missiles have been exported, and for example Iraq had them at their disposal in the Gulf War (6).

The task to design a maneuverable infrared missile for dogfight situations was originally given to design bureau Molniya. Later the bureau was given the task to develop spaceship Buran, and the R-73 Izdieliye 62 came to be Vympel's responsibility. The R&D was completed in 1985 and the R-73 is now Russia's primary close-range missile. The maneuverability has been improved by both aerodynamic means and thrust vectoring. It can be locked on target with help of a helmet sight. The R-73M homing head has a 45 degree angle of opening, which in the advanced version R-73M2 has been increased to 60 degrees. Also the rocket engine has been enlarged for longer range of operation and tolerance to infrared diversion has been improved (47).

The R-27 Izdieliye 470 entered production phase in 1986 and is now Russia's primary intermediate-range missile in air-to-air missile category. The first service versions of the missile were semi-active radar homing missile R-27R (Alamo-B) and infrared missile R-27T (Alamo-A). Both versions use inertial guidance with data link commands from the launching aircraft in the first phase of the flight. The third version, R-27P (Pasivnaya), is equipped with a passive homing head. It can be used against targets transmitting radar emissions, such as AWACS planes. The developed version R-27E (Energitisheskaya) is fitted with a more powerful rocket engine, which lengthens the missile by about 17 percent. The semi-active radar homing missile and infrared missile are R-27ER (Alamo-C) and R-27ET (Alamo-D), respectively. In 1992 Russia announced that it has two new air-to-air missile versions. The R-27EA is equipped with an active radar homing head and the R-27EM is semi-active radar homing missile designed specifically for the Su-35 fighter (47).

The RVV-AE Izdieliye 170 R-77 first came into public in 1992. Its initial flight is based on inertial guidance and the final flight on active radar homing. The cruciform fins act as aerodynamic control surfaces. The maximum curve velocity is reported to be 150 degrees a second. The missile is currently being introduced to service use on the Su-27M, MiG-29M and MiG-31M aircraft. As far as is known, at least two new versions are in research stage. One features an IR seeker and the other a more powerful engine. The latter is expected to reach 160-kilometer operation ranges at high altitudes. It may also feature passive radar homing head (47).

The R-33 (AA-9 Amos) missile was developed specifically for the MiG-31. The guidance is semi-active in the initial stage and semi-active radar homing in the final stage. The missile is meant to counter targets with limited agility. The maximum range is 120 kilometers. In the advanced MiG-31M version the plan is to replace the R-33 with the R-37 missile, in which the semi-active homing head has been replaced with active radar. However, the future of the MiG-31M program is quite uncertain, and the same may apply to the R-37 missile (48,6).

Novator Group has presented a plan concerning anti-AWACS missile KS-172/R-72(?). Its range would be 400 kilometers. The project is in its initial stages and there is no information about financing or possible buyers (6).

The Russians have also brought up an idea about a missile that could be launched backwards. It is based on the R-73 (AA-11 Archer) missile. The new missile weighs 5 kilos more and is 30 cm longer than the original R-73. It is still IR seeking and operates on two wavelengths. The angle of view is a 60-degree cone. The range is from one kilometer to 10 - 12 kilometers. The unfavorable launch velocity situation has an effect on the range. Tactically this missile is primarily a self-protection weapon for attack aircraft, bombers and intelligence aircraft, since in fighter combat the risk to hit own planes is very high (49).''

Russian Air Force 3.8

Rossiman

That's a understatement i will try to find the video of it, put it this way you would be better off throwing cream cheese out of the canopy, than to fire this. And the funny thing is i am not even joking, it is that bad and unsafe....