Best WVR plane?

**Silent Hunter** · 10 Nov 07,, 20:12

Which plane is best in a dogfight?

**zraver** · 10 Nov 07,, 20:28

F-22 Raptor, while not quite as agile as the newest Russian fighters because it only uses 2D rather than 3D TVC, its stealth aspects, superior avionics and new AIM-9X with 60-90 degree off boresight capability give it an almost unbeatable edge.

**Bluesman** · 10 Nov 07,, 22:03

Fokker D.VII.

**glyn** · 10 Nov 07,, 22:11

Originally Posted by Bluesman

Fokker D.VII.

Sopwith Triplane.

**~~Feanor~~** · 11 Nov 07,, 00:09

Originally Posted by zraver

F-22 Raptor, while not quite as agile as the newest Russian fighters because it only uses 2D rather than 3D TVC, its stealth aspects, superior avionics and new AIM-9X with 60-90 degree off boresight capability give it an almost unbeatable edge.

I plead ignorance, but what good is stealth in WVR?

**Jimmy** · 11 Nov 07,, 02:37

You can still use BVR weapons in the WVR environment. The AMRAAM, Alamo, and Adder dont just wait until 10 miles out before they start tracking.

**ind07** · 11 Nov 07,, 14:07

Originally Posted by Jimmy

You can still use BVR weapons in the WVR environment. The AMRAAM, Alamo, and Adder dont just wait until 10 miles out before they start tracking.

If beyond-visual-range (BVR) missiles can be defeated, pilots can press the attack and very quickly arrive at the within-visual-range (WVR) arena.
This is very much possible with modern day thrust vectoring fighters like Raptor, Flanker or Fulcrum-F (Mig 35).

**zraver** · 11 Nov 07,, 20:43

Originally Posted by Feanor

I plead ignorance, but what good is stealth in WVR?

if your radar won't lock on then your down to just IR weapons while the stealth still has radar, IR, and guns.

**Jimmy** · 11 Nov 07,, 22:15

Originally Posted by ind07

If beyond-visual-range (BVR) missiles can be defeated, pilots can press the attack and very quickly arrive at the within-visual-range (WVR) arena.
This is very much possible with modern day thrust vectoring fighters like Raptor, Flanker or Fulcrum-F (Mig 35).

Absolutely true. My point was that even once you're at the WVR arena, or even in the merge you can still use longer-range weapons. If I were in an F-15 merged with a Flanker or Fulcrum of course I'd RATHER use an AIM-9 and save the AMRAAM for later, but I'll shoot whatever will get the job done.

**~~Feanor~~** · 12 Nov 07,, 00:47

Originally Posted by zraver

if your radar won't lock on then your down to just IR weapons while the stealth still has radar, IR, and guns.

Aaah. Thank you.

**omon** · 12 Nov 07,, 01:28

Originally Posted by zraver

if your radar won't lock on then your down to just IR weapons while the stealth still has radar, IR, and guns.

ok, but once you turn your radar on, you are no longer stealth.

**zraver** · 12 Nov 07,, 02:28

Originally Posted by omon

ok, but once you turn your radar on, you are no longer stealth.

Assuming you can reliably detect and track the F-22's LPI AESA radar, or that the F-22 doesn't just use its AESA to fry your avionics

**Jimmy** · 12 Nov 07,, 03:19

Originally Posted by omon

ok, but once you turn your radar on, you are no longer stealth.

That's not exactly true. For this scenario, it doesnt matter at all if your RWR is screaming at you and lights are blinking...you cant shoot at me based on that. So who cares? If we're merged, I've probably already lost the advantage of surprise, because you might be able to visually see me.

**Tronic** · 12 Nov 07,, 05:45

Originally Posted by zraver

that the F-22 doesn't just use its AESA to fry your avionics

Don't know about this, how does this work?

**hello** · 12 Nov 07,, 11:23

Originally Posted by Feanor

I plead ignorance, but what good is stealth in WVR?

Low RCS means that BVR SARH/ARH weapons won't be effective and low radar signature means that you won't be able to lock an IR missile unless you're in gun range. Only guns aren't affected by stealth.

ok, but once you turn your radar on, you are no longer stealth.

Yes you are. The LPI APG-77 doesn't wake up your RWR unless you're already within visual range.