Best WVR plane?

**Silent Hunter** · 12 Nov 07,, 12:43

IR and Radar aren't the same thing though.

**~~Feanor~~** · 12 Nov 07,, 13:30

So realistically with WVR stealth gives a marginal advantage, that can be balanced out by the fact that most new Russian planes have 3-D vectored thrust, vs. 2-D?

**Jimmy** · 12 Nov 07,, 18:03

3-d vectored thrust will be AT BEST a marginal advantage. But the Raptor can actually maintain that turn much better and with much more energy than any current MiG or Sukhoi design. So you're talking about an advantage that vanishes after maybe 3/4 of a second.

I say at best because realistically they're not likely to pull more than about 9G no matter what.

**omon** · 12 Nov 07,, 18:12

the pilot is the key, i,ve read a book of a ww2 pilot, he said he could take me109 in his i16, while i16 was much slower, but it could zigzag between power poles. any plane is only as good as the pilot. in wvr(dog fight) things happen so fast, you don,t have time to think, and also he wrote, in most cases the plane that shoots you, is almost always the one you don,t see.

**avon1944** · 12 Nov 07,, 19:38

Originally Posted by zraver

F-22 Raptor, while not quite as agile as the newest Russian fighters because it only uses 2D rather than 3D TVC

While the Su-27 variants have 3D nozzles they don't extend (angular wise) as far as the F-22's nozzles. The USAF stands by its statement that the F-22 is the most maneuverable aircraft in the air. One F-22 pilot said, "the F-22 is 'the most' manuevable aircraft at 150mph!"

Originally Posted by zraver

that the F-22 doesn't just use its AESA to fry your avionics

The F-22 does not have an "electro magnet pulse generator", YET. It is one of the weapons that will be added in one of its upgrades.

The F-22 can fight a WVR no other aircraft can fight! It has demonstrated the ability to stay at altitudes above 60K and launch missiles down at its opponents. The opponents can see the F-22 but, that does not insure the opponent the ability to to put the F-22 in its weapon's envelope!
READ; Raptors wield 'unfair' advantage at Red Flag
Feature - Raptors wield 'unfair' advantage at Red Flag

Even 'if' the F-22 comes down to fight in a guns enviroment, the F-22 can defeat three F-16C's armed with high off-bore site missiles (HOB) and HMDS. The third F-16 and the F-22A fired their missiles simultaneously, thus all four aircraft died.
A reason the supporters of the F-22A seek to have the HMDS be among the upgrades that are to receive soon rather than later. Budget constraints are the reason is has been placed lower in priority.

Adrian

**nutter** · 24 Nov 07,, 16:48

Originally Posted by Feanor

So realistically with WVR stealth gives a marginal advantage, that can be balanced out by the fact that most new Russian planes have 3-D vectored thrust, vs. 2-D?

Not quite.

No radar lock = no accurate targeting for guns, no target airspeed, range, bearing, closure rate, etc.

So gunnery will be pretty damn difficult.

You still have IR missiles, but they have a minimum launch distance... and it does also help if you can lead the target a bit (which would be easier with the above info you don't have with no radar lock) so the missile has a hope of turning to an intercept course in time...

Its all well and good being more manouverable (which is debatable anyway), but if you don't know where to point your nose to achieve a firing solution, you're screwed anyway...