scorefour

Just wondering what everyone thinks about the announcement that the T-50 program is a go. According to Janes, the Russian military claims that the T-50will eventually become superior to the F-22 and equal to the F-35. Does this even make sense? The F-35 isn't as good as the F-22!

Feanor

New member. Ok first off you might want to make an introduction thread and the proper forum, and second off fill out your public profile.

Thirdly the PAK FA seems like a joke right now. There is no relevant/new information on it available. Only a few dated articles with ridiculous release dates and some conceptual images.
PAK-FA Sukhoi T-50 | Russian Arms, Military Technology, Analysis of Russia's Military Forces
Russia to test PAK-FA in 2007 ( Counter to the F-22 Raptors?)

This is the latest relevant article that actually has some info in it: Picture: Russian Sukhoi T-50 fighter images emerge-24/04/2007-Moscow-Flightglobal.com

scorefour

My apologies on the introduction thing. I'm sure it will take me a little while to figure this out.

There is quite a lack of info regarding this plane, but there are a few things we can assume the Russians are going for. In comparison to the F-22, 3-D thrust vectoring, greater internal weopons capacity, a larger physical space for the radar in the nose, rear facing "stinger" radar, greater fuel capacity and greater range.

Here is an interesting article that gives a decidedly Russian slant to the debate

[url="http://http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-NOTAM-030907-1.html"]

If there's one thing that bothers me about the F-22, it's that the baseline configuration was decided in a 3 month period of time. The Russians have had plenty of time to sit back and evaluate the capabilities of the Raptor and decide how they can build a better airframe. It's clear that they're designing a much larger AESA than the Raptor is capable of fielding, just based on physical size limitations. Also, the claims that were made about no plane being able to match the F-22's maneuverability for the next 40 years appear to be a load of crap. With 3-D thrust vectoring and a fairly similar aerodynamic profile to the Raptor, I don't see why the T-50 wouldn't be able to match or exceed the Raptor's agility.

gunnut

Everything is bigger and better than the Raptor. Sure, I can buy that. How long do you think it will take to design such a plane? How much will that cost? It's easy to come up with something bigger and better. It's quite another to translate the design from paper to reality.

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Feanor

Given the constant delays, and the fact that there was an announcement earlier that the first flight is scheduled for 2009 means that it will be effectively around 2020 that these planes will represent a substantial part of the Russian airforce.

Consider also that the Su-35 is not planned to be entering service on any meaningful scale. Same goes for the Su-30MK. There are supposedly 12 Terminators and 20 Super Flankers in service with the modern Russian airforce. Hardly enough for the situation described in the article to be a standard.

scorefour

The Russian airforce isn't necessarily the concern, it's who they sell them to. If the Chinese get their hands on them, then the Asian-Pacific arms race is in high gear.

The bigger issue in my mind is that the Russians (and Indians)will probably be able to produce an airplane roughly equivalent to the Raptor. Sure this will probably take longer than advertised, but I'll bet it will cost a heck of a lot less than a Raptor.

The U.S. military budget is larger than the rest of the world's combined. For all the money and effort we put into this program, I wish we would've come out further ahead.

Designing a plane in 3 months just to comply with a ridiculous schedule then to spend the next 20 years testing it seems like the wrong approach. Allow enough time to really get it right, then speed up the testing process. You'd better believe the Russians won't be testing this thing for the next 20 years!

gunnut

There won't be an equal to the current Raptor for another 15 years. By that time, the Raptors would have been upgraded.

Also we didn't spend 20 years testing the Raptor. We spent 15.

The air frame wasn't the focus of the test. It was the sensor package. Raptors are like stealth AWACS that can supercruise and lob missiles. The avionics is the crown jewel of the jet. Not the air frame.

Feanor

That's not an if. The ''if'' is whether they'll ever be finished. Now if they're finished, the Chinese WILL get their hands on them. Probably not a production license, but definetly atleast some purchases.

Not necessarily. Given the state of the Russian military, and the instability of the gas/oil economy, Russia could face another economic collapse in the near future.

If we are to believe the article, the testing schedule is 2 years. 2 years between first flight and first deliveries.

scorefour

There have been several very good points made. Yes, the test flight test stage did last 15 years, not 20. I was exagerating a little.

True the strength of the raptor is its sensor package. When the USAF was trying to sell congress on the plane, some of its "secret" capabilities were released to the public. Most of these centered around its AESA and the many new capabilities it offers. But, herein lies the problem. If the Russians are developing a much larger, more powerful AESA, and their R-77 missiles outdistance our AMRAAMs, then doesn't that mean that the Russians would have first look, first shot capability? One would have to assume that almost 20 years later, the Russians could design a plane with roughly the same radar signature as the Raptor.

I agree that programs started by the Russians have a very poor track record of actually being completed, but the fact that they've teamed up with India on this one obligates both sides to acutally go through with it.

Injecteer

I think, that the Raptor et al can easily become the last fighters in history.
Given the actual trend of removing the pilots from the aircrafts, thus reducing AC's size, RCS and costs to develop and produce, the main focus will be shifted to tiny, stealthy and speedy "Global Predators".
In that case a big, slow and dangerous (to it's pilot ) Raptor along with other 5th gen planes would be faded out.

VarSity

See I was kind of thinking the Russians would try and skip competing with the Raptor and jump straight into trying to develop a range of pilot less drones for 20odd years time.

FOG3

Have the Russians done anything meaningful with UCAV technology development?

The Northrop X-47 Pegasus and the Boeing X-45 have shown very impressive capabilities that have no doubt been improved upon since the tests we heard about several years ago with it being able to adapt to a changing mission environment among other things without need for human input. Plus, they've been working on making it be able to land on and take off from Carriers trick.

It is however unlikely that piloted aircraft will simply be replaced by unmanned aircraft in the near future. Computers can't be given a trained humans sense of discretion.

Feanor

Now wouldn't that make us cool? But realistically, the anwser is no way.

Remote controlled? Hmm that would bring signal reliability into question. Maybe you're right.

scorefour

The Russians don't have anywhere near the technology to skip a generation of fighters and go to an unmanned fighter. Neither does the U.S., but the ball is already rolling.

Check out this abbreviated article on Janes: USAF contemplates unmanned jet option - Jane's Air Forces News

The costs of "skipping" a generation of fighters is astronomical, as the U.S. discovered with the F-22. Russia and India will be lucky to get the T-50 off the ground, much less going a generation beyond that.

The issue is whether a 6th gen fighter would be remotely controlled or autonomous. Both are highly complex. The remote option is closer to reality, but imagine the bandwidth required to fly a fleet of those. Relying on satelites is becoming more and more risky, as the recent Chines ASAT test showed us. Clearly there will be many obstacles to overcome if a 6th gen fighter is being defined.

But imagine a 20 G+ capability and one can see why the U.S. is looking at it.

Archer

Indias deal with Russia is that China wont get it. But it depends on the Russians being fully honest, for once.

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