Gun Grape

But its easy to come to that conclusion when you have quotes from AF members such as:

And you look at the record. None of the pilots, or their commanders were ever charged for their negligence. Not a one. And in the incidents I cited, there was neglect. That’s not something you let off with a letter of reprimand at NJP. That gives me the impression that the AF either isn’t serious about Fratricide or there is one heck of a Pilot Protection Mafia in the AF.

Other incidents, I can understand. I know that sometimes stuff happens.

The F-15 that hit a MLRS launcher at BIA, was an unfortunate accident. Dropping ord at close in targets (CIAS vice CAS) at midnight I can understand how a pilot could mistake a MLRS SPLL for an opfor MLRS.

The F-14D that hit the SocCom convoy. Understandable, poor vis, ID panels were not visable, the IFF transmitters that the SocCom guys had were not compatible with Navy systems. And the Spotter gave a target description with out looking around his surroundings. Told the 14s to drop on the convoy located near an Iraq T-72 hulk. Unfortunately, if he had looked to his rear, he would have noticed that his convoy was also near a T-72 hulk. Target fixation, I’ve had it happen to me.

During Desert Storm, I think every Q-36/37 CBR/CMR in US inventory was hit by friendly fire Luckily only the radars were taken out and no Soldiers/Marines were killed.

Why? No one thought about it before, but the radars operated on the same J band freq as the Gun Dish radar system. Do I blame a pilot for lighting that up without vis ID? Hell no.

Expat Canuck

See these are prime examples of what are called accidents.

Seeing ground fire and working yourself into a frenzy and bombing allies is not an accident, It's negligence.

Jimmy

Quote A is in direct conflict with the regulations governing such missions. Believe me, I've been spinning up on this crap (CAS, TST, DT, etc) for weeks, in prep for exercises prior to deployment.

Quote B I also disagree with, personally I think its impressively arrogant.

I'm not even gonna go anywhere NEAR quote C, haha. My direct supervisor is a Canadian officer.

I dont have specifics on many frat issues. The one that's near and dear to my heart is the Blackhawk shootdown. I know people who were on that E-3. The Army got its own people killed that day, but the Air Force contributed without a doubt. The Army was in a habit of violating the Air Tasking Order and flying with incorrect squawks or even IFF transponders turned off. This right here is the primary reason two F-15Cs wiped out those Blackhawks. However, the F-15 pilots went in for TWO visual ID passes, incorrectly IDing the helos as Hinds. On the E-3, a couple of people knew that the Army might have helos operating in the area. A couple of other people were running the intercept. The information was never shared properly, and consequently nobody realized what was about to happen.

So who caught the blame? The Army pilots who made themselves a gorgeous target for any fighter pilot? Nope. The F-15 drivers who mis-identified the helicopters with the almighty Mark I eyeball? Nope. It was the Senior Director (head of the weapons team) on the AWACS, because of the lack of coordination/info-passing.

There is absolutely a pilot protection mafia, no doubt. That said, I know that there have been cases where pilots have been prosecuted or at the very least discharged. I think the cases where they basically get away with it are legal issues (the AF's legal system, like the rest of the US's legal system, is pretty well fubar) rather than an Air Force-wide attitude problem.
I find this hilarious, personally.

Gun Grape

I wonder which is stronger. The Pilot Protection mafia in the AF, the Warrant Officer Protection Mafia in the MC or the Canoe U mafia in the Navy? I'm sure the Army has a West Point Mafia and I have heard rumors of a Citadel Mafia that runs through all branches.

As do I. The system was in operation for over 10 years and that "small" fact seemed to slip through the cracks. And of all the services that should have caught it, mine is the one. During the 80s, we practiced using Q-36s to adjust artillery during period of reduced vis. And we used them in conjunction with Marine and Navy air to spot CAS front door/back door and target marks.
Not to mention ops/exercises where EA-6s were also used.

Guess no one turned their RWRs on.

Shek

GG,
I've never seen either of these in the units I've been in or heard of incidents where anything like this has played out. If there's been things where a unit commander has tried to sweep dirt under the rug, it's been an all encompassing thing and not a commissioning source specific favoritism in this regard.

__________________
"So little pains do the vulgar take in the investigation of truth, accepting readily the first story that comes to hand." Thucydides 1.20.3

avon1944

This was not the first of these type of incidents that occurred after PGW#1. Two months earlier there was an unknown and AWACS called in two F-14 Tomcats. The Tomcats were given permission to fire on the target. The lead pilot decided to get a visual ID with his TCS system. The unknown was a DC-9 charter that took-off more than an hour after the flight plan had stated.

It is good to see the pilots have a 'force' behind them. To many times a pilot does his best and some armchair lawyer tries to make him seem careless or incompetent because of some accident that happened.

Adrian

Gun Grape

Then I stand corrected, Sir.

I ASS U MEd that there would be one since the other service academies seem to have them. The WO mafia is truly a protection group. But the ring knockers seem to be more "Choice assignments" or "lets transfer him before he hurts his self or hide him at range control."

Shek

Like I said, it may exist by exception. I've only had one chance to see a Citadel-Citadel connection (BN XO and a staff CPT who was my buddy), and I didn't see any favoritism there. I've never seen any USMA-USMA favoritism, and I know that of my LTs as a commander, it was my ROTC guys that performed the best (and the worst, with some of these having been prior service). However, I did have a BN CDR (ROTC) who when he'd get drunk at battalion functions would make excessive comments about West Pointers to the point where it was beyond good natured joking and more like a subconscious complex surfacing

I always found it interesting how some folks concentrated too much on where you came from and not where you were.

sniperblue177

i would whant to know which one is truly better f-22 or su-47 for my self i would say f-22!

Jimmy

Since the Su-47 isnt a production aircraft, you make a good guess.

Only under certain circumstances does AWACS have the authority to make a hostile declaration. I'm REALLY curious to know where this event took place, since the ID matrix apparently had only one requirement to make a hostile dec: Point of Origin. That blows my mind if its true.

avon1944

It took place in the northern portion of the southern no fly zone, approximately two months before the Blackhawks were shot down by the F-15C's. I don't remember any other details, AW&ST wrote the article about the incident.

Adrian

Jimmy

Ah...the no-fly zones were actually what I was thinking of when I mentioned "certain circumstances." I hadnt heard about this incident, though. Pre-Blackhawk ID criteria were notoriously awful, all the way since Vietnam.

Skull6

Well, I can say with all certainty that there was no "USAFA-mafia" for those of us who crossed into the Army.

Should I feel "special" or just "lucky"?

P.S. The hardest thing I had to do in Desert Storm was call in FA/ CAS. I didn't have a "god's-eye-view" to know what was causing the billowing black diesel smoke on the other side of the sand dune. Our FLOT just wasn't the nice, thin line you see on most Movie maps, either. & the best advice I got during the war came from my FCS--"If you don't feel comfortable calling it in, then don't--now, clear my net!" I didn't call it in, but should have. While no one was killed because they rolled up on a BDE-sized element of the Republican Guard on the other side, there were some injuries. But that's something only I can help myself live with.

& because of my background, I do know some of the "old" problems pertaining to the training of CAS pilots & Army attack pilots--one of which was that they were prone to target any hotspot in the vicinity of their given target grid. Slightly understandable, because at the time they didn't have IF/ thermal sights to get a proper visual vehicle ID. That's been fixed--or at least I've been told it has.

Do I ever want our forces to suffer friendly CAS? Certainly not. BUT..."let those among us without sin cast the first stone." We're all human. We're all going to make mistakes. I know that's no condolence for the families of those friendly troops we've lost. I pray for their comfort & peace. But until we can all be perfect & make perfect decisions & build perfect equipment, I feel friendly casualties will remain a sad & sorry fact of life.

The best we can do is learn from our mistakes, & make every effort to keep it from happening again.

P.P.S. & the fool who said that the Army "plans" on training losses couldn't be more out of his gourd. Sometimes I feel the Army goes overboard on making sure situations are "safe" before continuing training operations, but I'll stomache this personal feeling LONG before I'll accept them doing otherwise.

Every training-related death I've been near has caused at least a 2-day "Safety Stand-down"--while information is gathered, witnesses interviewed, plans re-evaluated, etc--so that a text can be generated & decisions can be made as to how to keep the situation from happening again.

Please...conduct the following boldface--to the letter, before making similar rash statements in the future:

"ENGAGE BRAIN"

__________________
If you know the enemy and yourself you need not fear the results of a hundred battles. - Sun Tzu

Jimmy

There are serious efforts to improve the ability to discriminate between friendly and hostile assets, on the ground and in the air. Its an ongoing process, and of course it takes a long time to see any concrete results. And even when that happens, its a fairly transparent event...nobody notices things that dont happen, unless it used to happen a lot. And even then nobody notices until its been a looong time.

ozjohn39

Please excuse my ignorance, but why Alaska?

These things are as scarce as hens teeth, and I would have thought maybe the UK and nearer to the action in the Middle East perhaps?

John

__________________
"Do unto others, as you would have them do unto you".