Bluesman

Guy's been a first-class dick since I've been here, man. Tried to bury the hatchet awhile back, but he's a High Holy Jarhead Ass-bite, and is just in love with his contrarian/curmudgeon self-image, so anytime he gets the chance to start in about Marines being so very much better than, well, EVERYbody, he jumps on it.

He's probably the father of that young Marine that told my buddy that even though they were two pay-grades apart, he didn't have to do what he said, because he wasn't a MARINE NCO, just an Air Force guy. He said that's what they taught him at Parris Island.

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"The quickest way of ending a war is to lose it, and if one finds the prospect of a long war intolerable, it is natural to disbelieve in the possibility of victory."
- George Orwell

Officer of Engineers

How about you taking that attitude and sticking it up your butt and I don't give a freaking damn if you're flying X-Wing from Star Wars.

Things should not happen but they do. It's bad enough that my people died under your mistakes but to call us "fuzzy foreigners" takes the cake. It was friendly fire and I understand that but it was your freaking mistake, not ours. Fix your own mistakes before telling us that we don't understand why my people died when you did wrong.

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Chimo

Officer of Engineers

Master-Sergeant,

While I understand the animosity you and Gun Grape have for each other, please be advised that it is the likes of Gun Grape that is keeping our people having faith in each other.

When you have American citizens telling us that we're (the Canadians) the ones going after the war hero Harry Schmitt, it is the likes of the Gunny ... and the 187BCT who openly sympathize with us and at least not supporting Schmitt that kept 3 PPCLI's heart in the fight.

Colonel Frank Wiercinski's words to our fallen "We've fought together. We'll grieve together."

As an Officer, I can understand Friendly Fire. As a Canadian, the likes of the Gunny and Colonel Wiercinski keeps me committed to the fight. The arrogance of Scrappy does not.

Shek

100% false. AR 385-63, the bible on surface danger zones, used to be entitled "Policies and Procedures for Firing Ammunition for Training, Target Practice, and Combat" until 2003, when it was retitled "Range Safety." Nothing changed content wise, and to fire within 15 degrees of troops during training requires a waiver from the installation range safety officer, who is one step removed in most cases from the post commander. You cannot fire within 15 degrees during training, period. Any leader that deliberately plans a live fire that exceeds the safety limitation will be relieved in the least severe case, and could find themselves facing criminal charges depending on how negligent their behavior is if it results in the injury or death of a soldier.

During combat, the ground commander has the authority and responsibility to fire closer, but it should be a decision such that it is less dangerous to fire more closely than to not do so.

So, bottomline, I'm not sure where you're getting your information from, but it is patently false.

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"So little pains do the vulgar take in the investigation of truth, accepting readily the first story that comes to hand." Thucydides 1.20.3

Jimmy

Its no more false than the accusation that the AF doesnt give a **** about friendly fire. We use the same pubs as everyone else. I have a pocket-sized copy of JFIRE for crying out loud.

Shek

I was only commenting about the fact that you were talking out of your fourth point of contact when you tried to make the claim that the Army "plans for killing people" in training.

Bluesman

I'm sick of his crap. That's all. He does this thing CONSTANTLY, and I'll find five threads where he just jumps on it and makes out like a Marine is just the epitome of military capability and virtue, and if it stopped at that, he'd just be a blow-hard, like they're brainwashed to be. But he's unduly critical of the other services that he but dimly understands, and as you know, I don't suffer a fool like that gladly.

So whatever THIS thread is about, Da Grape is standing on my last nerve - AGAIN - and I'm just telling him to step off.

That's it.

Bluesman

And that's what set me off, too. I'm older than I should be BECAUSE of the immense care that I gave to the job, and I have NO DOUBT that the stick actuators feel even moreso.

WAY too many here seem to have bought into the notion of the Ray-Ban/silk scarf/devil-may-care wildman-in-a-flightsuit frat boy image that fighter jocks have put up with ever since Hollywood thought they knew how to portray them. IT DON'T WORK, because it's not reality.

That's all we're saying.

Gun Grape

I addition to the point that Shek made, I’ll add this.

Your above statement is crap. Immediately after a death in a training area, regardless of the cause, ALL TRAINING IS HALTED ON THE BASE.

I’ll give a real life example. A Marine company was going through one of the Assault Fire and Maneuver courses, One Plt was assaulting, firing on the move. E-2 with a SAW had a jam, slowed down to clear the stoppage and the rest of his fire team got ahead of him. After clearing the stoppage, he took the weapon off safe, the weapon fired and he shot and killed a fellow Marine.

What happened? All live fire was immediately suspended aboard Camp Lejeune.
Three days later, the investigation had progressed far enough that non-maneuver ranges were opened. (ie. rifle range).

For the unit, the Marines fire team leader, Squad ldr, Plt. Sgt, Plt. Cdr were relieved. The
XO as RSO was relieved as was the SNCO that was acting as the NCOIC of firing and the SNCO that was the downrange safety NCOIC. Company CO and Bn Cdr received Letters of Reprimand from the CG.

All SAW firing was suspended throughout the Marine Corps. In the investigation, it was noted that the TTPs taught at the School Of Infantry were followed by the PFC, however because of the SAW being fired from the open bolt, the procedures in regards to placing the weapon on safe could cause the bolt to go home and firing a round if the weapon had a round in the feed tray.

New procedures were developed, distributed throughout the Marine Corps (and Army Tradoc). All SAW gunners were given remedial training before they were allowed to
Fire the weapon. The SOI incorporated the changes in the training syllabus.

And new rules were set since it was deemed that a PFC really isn’t experienced enough to be a SAW gunner. T/O changed and SAWs were no longer given to the “boots” since it’s a heavier weapon.

A lot of other things happened IRT range safety procedures but I think you get the point.

Its not “Oh well we killed another one. Keep training.”

A for interservice rivalery. Where is that coming from? All but one incident I quoted
were from our allies. When an allied officer makes a statement like LtCol Larpent, Its not interservice anything. It a lack of confidence from one of our most faithful allies. That’s a problem.

I have noticed though, Its OK to trash the Navy, the Army, the Democrats, French and a whole host of others. But say something bad about the Air Force and “Oh My God.”

Gun Grape

Then put me on ignore. Not once here have I made Marines out to be"the epitomy of military virtue." Its just smoke and mirrors, like I said "Deny, Deny, Deny and make counter accusations."

That young Marine should have had his s*it jumped. That isn't what they teack at either MCRD

I disagree with this, and will continue to voice my opinion about a cavalier
attitude like that.

And quite frankly, I'm suprised you feel that way. Your son is in the Army and God forbid, if he was injured or killed due to friendly fire, I don't think you would accept the "We were 70% sure."

I want the problem fixed before young Gun Grape dons a uniform.

Expat Canuck

CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP!!

Expat Canuck

I'm glad I wasn't the only fuzzy one offended.

Jimmy

In that case, I'll take the hit. I was basing my statement on the opinion of someone I know to be jaded by his own experiences at Ft Irwin. I'll also say I'm glad the Army takes this as seriously as the Air Force does.

It had nothing to do with the quotes, it was the "Air Force doesnt give a ****" attitude. Ask me how many times I've heard "Chair Force" or "What's it like being paid AD pay for being in ROTC?" or a variety of "pilot wannabe" comments. Like I said, interservice rivalry has its place as long as it stays in the joking/half-joking realm. When people start throwing no-nonsense "Service X blows goats" comments around, its time to reel in the BS and sort out what's really going on.

Edit: But yes, its ok to trash the Navy, Army, Democrats, and French.

Officer of Engineers

I noticed that you two left out the Marines and AF.

Gun Grape

I'm sure it was a simple forgetfulness on both our parts. Not a Sin of Omission