Elmendorf welcomes F-22 Raptor - Page 2

Scrapdog · 08-11-2007, 01:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wabpilot

That was the way the USAF did business. In the Navy, we tended to have our reserve air wings equipped similarly to our active air wings. During the 1980s, we upgraded the reserves to F-14s from the F-4S. That was while we still had F-4N and F-4S squadrons in the regular navy. The same happened with F-18s replacing the A-7. However, the A-7 hung on for a long time in both the regulars and reserves. (It was a good light attack type.)

In the Naval Reserve Force we haven't done as well. They still have too many FFGs. But, almost every Naval Reserve Center has either a Bridge, CIC, Damage Control or Engine Room simulator. The Reservists arrive for their reserve cruise well drilled on how to operate their particular part of the ship, even if their ship is now very much out of date. Thus, a reserve cruise can concentrate on integrating the reservists into the ship's routine without worrying about teaching them their primary duty.

Our system also has two other types of reserves. First there are the active duty reserves. Those are officers who have a reserve commission rather than a regular one. The majority of our serving officers are actually reservists. A substantial majority of our naval aviators on active duty are reservists. That is how I was initially commissioned. I transferred to the regular navy after my four year commitment was complete because the retirement benefits were better. I served under reservists until I got my third stripe. From there on, it was rare to see a reservist on active duty. But, there are reserve Captains and even Admirals. They just tend to be on reserve duty.

The next group of reserves are officers and NCOs who have completed their active service obligations, but are not retired or discharged. They are assigned to the inactive reserve. Which is more what I think your understanding of the reserve is. Definitely people who could be called up in the event of an emergency, but not training on a regular basis.

I mean no offense Will, but that may have been the USAF did business 20 years ago, but it hasn't been that way in a while. I don't know how long you've been out of the business, but for the most part, the ANG/Reserves are playing an equal part or more so than their AD counterparts currently deployed to the middle east. You look at the F-16 units deployed recently for example and you'll see units like Syracuse, McEntire, DC, Great Falls, Homestead, etc...right next to their AD F-16 counterparts.

If you look at the backbone of any ANG/Reserve fighter squadron, and you'll see almost all of the flyers are already experienced fighter pilots with well over 1000 hours in some type of high performance jet. While the part timers may only fly 7 to 8 times a month at the squadron...when they are activated to go to war it'll only take a couple of weeks before they're a lethal warfighting machine. All that experience really makes a difference - as compared to an active duty squadron. While younger active duty guys spend more time on average in the squadron - they certainly don't have that airmanship backbone to fall back upon once the proverbial sh*t hits the fan.

I'm not familiar with the Navy Reserve act, however it's obviously on a much smaller scale than the USAF ANG and Reserve. Plus, the F-22's will never be going to the Navy or the Navy Reserves for that matter. Not trying to flame - just pointing out the current basics that I think most folks are missing in today's USAF fighting forces...especially our fuzzy foreign friends.

HKDan · 08-11-2007, 07:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scrapdog

It takes a lot more to stand up a squadron or a wing than just getting airplanes on the ramp.

I am fully aware of that. I know that the 3rd Wing at Elmendorf has spent a long time preparing to stand up its F-22 squadrons. However that has nothing to do with my question. What I am wondering is whether the date mentioned in the article was a typo or a sign that the Air Force has changed its plans for fielding the Raptor. I am waiting to hear back from the Public Affairs office at Elmendorf and when(if) I do I will be sure to post the response here.

wabpilot · 08-11-2007, 09:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scrapdog

I mean no offense Will, but that may have been the USAF did business 20 years ago, but it hasn't been that way in a while.

Since it is obvious that you did not read my post, or if you did you did not understand it, I won't waste a lot of time replying to you. Suffice to say, that I think you should learn to read for comprehension.

Quote:

I'm not familiar with the Navy Reserve act, however it's obviously on a much smaller scale than the USAF ANG and Reserve. Plus, the F-22's will never be going to the Navy or the Navy Reserves for that matter. Not trying to flame - just pointing out the current basics that I think most folks are missing in today's USAF fighting forces...especially our fuzzy foreign friends.

Learn to read for comprehension.

**Officer of Engineers** · 08-11-2007, 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wabpilot

I served under reservists until I got my third stripe. From there on, it was rare to see a reservist on active duty. But, there are reserve Captains and even Admirals. They just tend to be on reserve duty.

Commander,

A career path question. How much study would you personally have to do in order to command a CVBG? I mean how much indepth do you need to know the taskings and capabilities of other ships and boats. I'm having trouble grasping your obvious command of the air and relating to the other trades. Enemy subs ain't your job.

Levsha · 08-11-2007, 19:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wabpilot

But, there are reserve Captains and even Admirals. They just tend to be on reserve duty.

If I do rightly recall, Alan B. Shepard, the first American in space, and one of only 12 people to walk on the Moon, retired from military service with the rank of USN Admiral (reserves). Provokes 2 questions in me, what exactly were his responsibilities, and how much time approximately did he have to contribute outside his normal civilian job to carry out those responsibilities?

Gun Grape · 08-11-2007, 21:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scrapdog

If you look at the backbone of any ANG/Reserve fighter squadron, and you'll see almost all of the flyers are already experienced fighter pilots with well over 1000 hours in some type of high performance jet. While the part timers may only fly 7 to 8 times a month at the squadron...when they are activated to go to war it'll only take a couple of weeks before they're a lethal warfighting machine. All that experience really makes a difference - as compared to an active duty squadron. While younger active duty guys spend more time on average in the squadron - they certainly don't have that airmanship backbone to fall back upon once the proverbial sh*t hits the fan.

How do you explain the fact that the majority of Fratricide has been by AFR/ANG pilots?

Seems like the active duty guys are doing better without all that "experience" and airmanship backbone" to fall back on when the SHTF.

Gun Grape · 08-11-2007, 21:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Levsha

If I do rightly recall, Alan B. Shepard, the first American in space, and one of only 12 people to walk on the Moon, retired from military service with the rank of USN Admiral (reserves). Provokes 2 questions in me, what exactly were his responsibilities, and how much time approximately did he have to contribute outside his normal civilian job to carry out those responsibilities?

Well his "naval reserve" duties were to represent the Navy in the Astronaut program

Now how many of us have said the Shepard's Prayer?

"“Please, dear God, don't let me f*ck up.”

Scrapdog · 08-11-2007, 21:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gun Grape

How do you explain the fact that the majority of Fratricide has been by AFR/ANG pilots?

.

Please cite actual examples.

Gun Grape · 08-11-2007, 21:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scrapdog

Please cite actual examples.

Your Sh*tting me, right?

Are you claiming that you havn't heard of any of them?

The AFR doesn't have lessons learned?

Don't do AARs?

Are you sure you are a AF aviator?

wabpilot · 08-11-2007, 22:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers

Commander,

A career path question. How much study would you personally have to do in order to command a CVBG? I mean how much indepth do you need to know the taskings and capabilities of other ships and boats. I'm having trouble grasping your obvious command of the air and relating to the other trades. Enemy subs ain't your job.

That was a fork in the career path I did not go down. However, the general path to command of a CVGB begins about an officer's seventh year in active duty service. He, or she has a sea tour complete and it's time to start thinking about the future. If the officer wants the flag he or she has to plan on surface warfare school. So instead of Maintenance school or PTS, it's off to Newport for SWO school. Then, it's a surface tour, or perhaps ops school. Back to a squadron for a department head tour. Next shore tour, it's PCO course and an advanced degree, if the officer doesn't have one. Maybe a turn as a Naval Science Professor at one of our colleges while getting that advanced degree. Get some time bringing up the next generation. Then, it's a command tour, hopefully.

Success with a command tour is the ticket to a deep draft command. Of course, the next step is another PCO course. Only this time, the students will be SWOs who are ready to step up and command CGs, LHAs, LHDs, LPDs, AORs and and other deep draft surface ships. Competition is fierce. There will be aviatiors from patrol naval aviation, rotar wing, fixed wing, SWOs from DDGs and FFGs. If an officer doesn't know his ASW, his engineering, his leadership, PCO course will either fix that, or get the retirement papers in order. Next, will be a deep draft command, usually an AO. There will be aboard an experienced XO who can easily command the ship, but his or her job isn't to command, but to teach.

Next is the big step, command of a CVN. A little less than three years to make it work. Even though the Captain is an absolute power with regard to the ship, the Captain is being evaluated. Evaluated for his abilities, his leadership, his ability to manage peers, his seamanship. No Captain can do all things better than everyone else on the ship. That's the real trick, the CO has to be able to motivate people who can do things better than him, to do them. He has to manage his peers.

After the command at sea tour, comes a trip to the Naval War College, if a Captain hasn't already been there. That's where future admirals are trained. It's a big picture kind of school. Remember, the CO has already proven he can get the best out of the best. Now, he's got to train to do it again, only this time, to get the best out of his ship captains, not just his department heads.

A lot of schools, a lot of real world experience beyond aviation goes in before the stars go on. A CVBG commander will have SWO school, a couple of aviation schools, an advanced degree, a degree from the Naval War College, a sqaudron department head tour, a squadron command tour and a couple of deep draft commands.

wabpilot · 08-11-2007, 22:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Levsha

If I do rightly recall, Alan B. Shepard, the first American in space, and one of only 12 people to walk on the Moon, retired from military service with the rank of USN Admiral (reserves). Provokes 2 questions in me, what exactly were his responsibilities,

Astronaut.

Quote:

and how much time approximately did he have to contribute outside his normal civilian job to carry out those responsibilities?

He was a naval reserve officer on active duty assigned to NASA. Until Alan Shepard retired, he didn't have a civilian job.

Scrapdog · 08-13-2007, 00:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gun Grape

Your Sh*tting me, right?

Are you claiming that you havn't heard of any of them?

The AFR doesn't have lessons learned?

Don't do AARs?

Are you sure you are a AF aviator?

I'm sure - now please cite examples.

**Officer of Engineers** · 08-13-2007, 01:11 AM

Harry Schmitt

Gun Grape · 08-13-2007, 20:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scrapdog

I'm sure - now please cite examples.

Unfortunately, that request will be to easy to fill.

The one that OoE mentioned

Quote:

On April 18, 2002, an American F-16 fighter jet dropped a laser-guided 225-kilogram bomb near Kandahar, accidentally killing four Canadian soldiers and injuring eight others.

The two pilots involved are members of the 183rd Fighter Wing of the Illinois Air National Guard, and were temporarily assigned to the 332nd Air Expeditionary Group in Southwest Asia.

Another one

Quote:

190th Fighter Squadron, Blues and Royals friendly fire incident was a "friendly fire" incident involving two United States Air Force Air National Guard 190th Fighter Squadron attack aircraft and vehicles from the United Kingdom's D Squadron, The Blues and Royals of the Household Cavalry and took place on March 28, 2003 during the invasion of Iraq by armed forces of the United States and United Kingdom.

The transcript reveals as many as six errors immediately before the attack near Basra in southern Iraq on March 28, 2003. On several occasions the pilots, a Major and a Lieutenant Colonel of the 190th Fighter Squadron, the Idaho Air National Guard, say they can see orange panels used to identify coalition forces, but convince themselves that they are enemy rocket launchers. The pilots were not sure what red smoke released on the ground to show them they had hit friendly forces meant, and had switched off communications with the ground so they did not hear instructions to stop firing.

The same thing happened with the Marines of 1/2 in the battle of An Nasiriyah that were strafed by reserve A-10s. Eight times. Pilots ignored the Red Smoke, Red Flares and didn't ID the AAV-7s as friendly vehicles. Unfortunately the gun camera tapes were recorded over (by mistake) and the only person blamed was the MC TACP.

Quote:

Sept. 5, 2006 – Military officials in Southwest Asia are expressing regret and offering condolences in the wake of a “friendly fire” incident in Afghanistan yesterday that claimed one coalition soldier’s life and wounded several others.

A statement issued by the forward headquarters of U.S. Central Command Air Forces said a U.S. A-10 Thunderbolt II responded to a call for close-air support from officials of NATO’s International Security Assistance Force at about 5:30 a.m. yesterday. Coalition troops were engaged in close combat against Taliban insurgents, west of the city of Kandahar in the Panjwayi district of Afghanistan’s Kandahar province. ISAF forces engaged in the battle received close-air support from the A-10s during the extended battle, officials said.

“Regrettably,” the Central Command Air Forces statement said, “one of the several A-10s supporting the mission engaged friendly forces during a strafing run. One soldier was killed and a number of others were wounded.” ISAF medical assets responded immediately and evacuated the casualties to ISAF military medical facilities for treatment, officials said.
(Pilot from the 442d Fighter Wing)

And here is one in the States that could have been horrible if the ANG pilot was flying during the day.

Quote:

Nov 2004 LITTLE EGG HARBOR, N.J. -- National Guard officials were at the Little Egg Harbor Intermediate School on Monday night, offering their first explanation on why a fighter jet strafed the school last Wednesday.

The pilot was identified as Maj. Roberto Balzano of the 113th Wing of the District of Columbia National Guard, based at Andrews Air Force Base in Maryland. The report said his commander will determine if any punitive or administrative action should be taken, and whether any retraining is necessary. Balzano has more than 2,000 hours of experience flying planes, 975 hours of which were in the F-16s.

Balzano, referred to in the report as the "mishap pilot," or MP, was verifying his aircraft position in relation to his intended ground targets on the Warren Grove Gunnery Range in southern New Jersey, 17 miles northeast of Atlantic City. The school is about four miles from the range.

"Unfortunately, the MP forgot that his aircraft's air-to-ground gun mode was selected and armed ready to fire. The MP immediately realized his error when the aircraft gun's discharged," the report said.

Balzano was on a nighttime training sortie conducting basic surface attacks at the range. A briefing session was held before the mission and Balzano was cautioned not to use his laser marker with the air-to-ground gun mode selected and the gun armed, the report said.

However, shortly after 9 p.m., Balzano was flying at approximately 7,000 feet over the range when he pulled the trigger, firing 27 rounds of 20mm ammunition. Eight of the 2-inch lead rounds punched through the school's roof, knocking down ceiling tiles. At least one rounded struck a child's desk, and others scuffed the asphalt in the parking lot.

I can produce way to many more. But its making me sick

I think this statement says it well

Quote:

British Army Lt. Col. Andrew Larpent, whose unit suffered nine dead and 12 wounded when an U.S. Air Force A-10 mistook them for enemy troops in 1991, called on the British military to implement a system to protect British troops from American fighter pilots before sending them into battle in Operation Iraqi Freedom. Asked to characterize the nature of problem, Larpent responded, "It is a lack of care by U.S. pilots who should take more care."

Expat Canuck · 08-13-2007, 21:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scrapdog

Please cite actual examples.

You're joking right? No wonder Canadians are bomb magnets around you lot, seems you don't pay attention much.

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