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Reply With QuoteThis manuever belongs to the airshows only.
Alright, time to get the discussion going on this topic again. We know it isn't meant for air combat; what is it meant for then? Airshows?
And can it really be used in real A2A combat?
I think it would suck in BVR combat, wherein the defensive fighter should be making high speed evasive manuevers to avoid the missile.
In BVR combat there could be 2 scenarios:
1. Missile fired is SARH - In this case, the firing platform would be moving, and defensive a/c would not be at zero speed. Which means defensive a/c is unable to break lock and is a sitting duck for the incoming missile.
2. Missile fired is ARH - In this case the firing platform & missile's radar, both would be tracking the defensive aircraft one after another. Again sitting duck.
For WVR Combat:
1. If you are guns only then prolly it could work. But for the Cobra to work, both the a/c should be flying in a straight line, which rarely happens in a DF.
2. In a WVR fight with the offensive fighter having heaters, this seems suicide.
So, does this manuever belong to the old days when missiles did not exist?
P.S.: Would appreciate if this thread was kept on its topic and trollers who know nothing about air combat stayed out of it..
Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage.
This manuever belongs to the airshows only.
This maneuver has been used in guns only fights before the Su-27 was even on the drawing board. It was possible to perform it to some degree with the F-86 and F-100, IIRC.
It can work to cause the guy on your tail to overshoot at a critical moment, but you better hope his wingie isn't there to take advantage of it, 'cause you're pretty much just hanging there
Airshow maneuver only. However, if the guy decided to use it and I was offensive in a BFM fight (IOW 1 v 1 WVR), I'd simply control my closure by doing a quarter plane and then once closure was under control - would get right back into a gun solution. Once you perform the infamous Russian "cobra" you're completly out of airspeed and extremely predictable. If the Ruskies are teaching this clown manuever as an actual combat manuever...all the more better for guys behind them to practice their pipper placement.Originally Posted by Maximus
Alright, time to get the discussion going on this topic again. We know it isn't meant for air combat; what is it meant for then? Airshows?
And can it really be used in real A2A combat?
I think it would suck in BVR combat, wherein the defensive fighter should be making high speed evasive manuevers to avoid the missile.
In BVR combat there could be 2 scenarios:
1. Missile fired is SARH - In this case, the firing platform would be moving, and defensive a/c would not be at zero speed. Which means defensive a/c is unable to break lock and is a sitting duck for the incoming missile.
2. Missile fired is ARH - In this case the firing platform & missile's radar, both would be tracking the defensive aircraft one after another. Again sitting duck.
For WVR Combat:
1. If you are guns only then prolly it could work. But for the Cobra to work, both the a/c should be flying in a straight line, which rarely happens in a DF.
2. In a WVR fight with the offensive fighter having heaters, this seems suicide.
So, does this manuever belong to the old days when missiles did not exist?
P.S.: Would appreciate if this thread was kept on its topic and trollers who know nothing about air combat stayed out of it..
What's the maximum 'safe' speed you can perform this manuever at?
Seems to me this little stunt is gonna kill all your kinetic energy and you'll be vulnerable to a kid with a good sling shot....
Where does all this "what if the Russkies would use cobra in combat" talk come from?
What if the US would use the civil war re-enactment troops in Iraq?
Ummm, then the US would be over run by the insurgents. jeeze!!!!
Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage.
... and that works against inexperienced players, yes.
But, let's get a few things straight: Lock On's Cobra is quite scripted, and doesn't end with the same low speed it ought to.
In addition, in most of those cases, the guy's demonstrating against unarmed AI, or at best, just armed with gun. Otherwise he'd be DEAD.
And that's all there is to that
The problem with that is that nobody else shoots at him. He'd have died in every single one of those, except for where he shot down the KC-10 haha
Mikhail Simonov said in an interview at a symposium at the University of Texas said, that 450 mph was the maximum entry speed. At this speed the Su-27 generates 13G's, what the airframe is designed to handle!!
It is a maneuver whos only real application is in the guns enviroment. A plane is on your 'six' and inside six hundred meters. If you enemy is one kilometer (or more) behind and you do the cobra, he has time to adjust and gun you down.
While the USA and Israeli militaries feel the maneuver has little utility, back in 1974 the YF-17 was able to pitch up to ninety degrees and maintain control. There was no need to explore beyond that point. (AW&ST 12/16/74 Pg 40-46)
The Russian AF still feels the furball will produce a high number of kills and therefore plan for their aircraft to use their guns more. The USA look at the last two gun kills occurred in 1982 (Bekaa Valley) and 1986 PAF. Missiles getting far more advanced is the reason the USA looks to missile kills in the future and the chance of a gun kill lower than ever before.
NOTE:
Sukhoi test pilot Evgeny Frolov said that he was the first Sukhoi pilot to do the cobra, as they sought to understand fully the instability problems of the Su-27. Viktor Pougachev was the first to do it in public.
Adrian
Not quite .. more like 3g's.
This could be replicated in RL, where the Aircraft is flying NOE(Nap of the earth) and other fighter up high isn't able to track him..
Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage.
The Cobra generates only 3 g's? That's less than a rollercoaster.
You're presuming the NOE fighter would have the means of seeing the one up high ... it's not impossible, it's just about as unlikely as the other way around, barring contrails etc.
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