US wants India's fighter jet order, dangles F-35 carrot

Tronic · 07-19-2007, 18:44 PM

Quote:

US wants India's fighter jet order, dangles F-35 carrot

New Delhi: Unmatched stealth and super cruise - the Indian Air Force got a glimpse of the future of air combat in an American presentation on its next-generation fighter, the F-35, on Tuesday.

There were indications that the US is willing to share this new weapon with India, but it's clearly a carrot for giving the older F-16 a leg up in the Indian tender for 126 fighter aircraft.

Says Lockheed Martin's Royce Caplinger, "Beyond the RFP that's on the horizon, the F-35 too could play a role, sometime in the future."

The Americans are raising the bar for the competition in the Indian arms bazaar. They are making offers which are difficult to resist. India is being told that it can have the new generation stealth fighter for the price of an F-16.

"Think one to one and I am serious when I say this," says Caplinger.

So, the F-16 is now being sold as the transition to a fifth generation fighter, which has no parallel among the competition. And affordability is the key to this sales pitch.

The price is about $50 million apiece at current prices. The Americans promise that the F-35 will take India into a different league.

"It's a game changer, in every sense of the word," says Caplinger.

The Joint Strike Aircraft will be operationalised only by 2014. The first of India's 126 fighters of an earlier generation will only start arriving by then.

So, the signal that the F-35 would be available is bound to raise an Indian dilemma: Is India investing over Rs 40,000 crore in fighters which will be rendered obsolete by a similarly-priced aircraft?
IBNLive.com > US wants India's fighter jet order, dangles F-35 carrot : US, India, fighter jets, F-16, F-35

Quite a dilemma. Though, I still don't think the F-16 has a chance here; Super Hornet is a far better bet, as I believe one of the requirements was of a twin engined aircraft.

Zhang Fei · 07-19-2007, 23:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tronic

Quite a dilemma. Though, I still don't think the F-16 has a chance here; Super Hornet is a far better bet, as I believe one of the requirements was of a twin engined aircraft.

Caplinger may be getting a little carried away. He doesn't decide what LMT gets to export. Congress does. We'll see. All of the partners who signed up for the JSF and paid for cost overruns won't be happy if India gets a cut-rate deal. I think Caplinger is writing JSF checks that will bounce when India tries to cash 'em.

Tronic · 07-19-2007, 23:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zhang Fei

Caplinger may be getting a little carried away. He doesn't decide what LMT gets to export. Congress does. We'll see. All of the partners who signed up for the JSF and paid for cost overruns won't be happy if India gets a cut-rate deal. I think Caplinger is writing JSF checks that will bounce when India tries to cash 'em.

It is not a sole move by Lockheed Martin; even earlier I believe, if i'm not wrong, India had been invited by the US government to be an observer and then an eventual member of the JSF program. Though, the Indian forces had never really been interested in it, as the JSF is expensive and is too much for a not so big of a threat, in the Indian scenario.

As for permission from Congress, that goes for all weapon exports to almost all other nations. As far as I know about the US system, Congress is merely there for a stamp of approval. And if the Congress has no problem giving the go ahead to the nuclear deal with India, I see no reason why they would say no to the JSF, and yes to nuclear tech.

joey · 07-20-2007, 18:17 PM

JSF was ruled out by IAF chief.
Aero India 2007 News, Daily Aero India 2007 Show Coverage, Photos, Videos – Defense News

Quote:

“We cannot buy JSF,” Air Chief Marshall Shashindra Pal Tyagi told reporters as he outlined India’s ambitious modernization plan. “We would rather have most of the stuff done here.”

............

But that long list of countries that already have divvied up work on the project is exactly why — after looking closely at the program — India isn’t interested, Tyagi said. Indian officials have made it clear that they want a key development role in the aircraft they buy, along with the ability to build 90 percent of the jet in India.

............

Although interest in JSF is scant, Tyagi said he was attracted to Indian participation in Russia’s drive to develop a fifth-generation fighter jet, an endeavor that would allow Indian engineers to play a key early role in the program. New Delhi, however, is waiting on Russia, which has the lead on the effort.

gf0012-aust · 07-21-2007, 02:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zhang Fei

Caplinger may be getting a little carried away. He doesn't decide what LMT gets to export. Congress does. We'll see. All of the partners who signed up for the JSF and paid for cost overruns won't be happy if India gets a cut-rate deal. I think Caplinger is writing JSF checks that will bounce when India tries to cash 'em.

Indias requirements for participation in development will lock this out. the existing players would also need to grant approval (esp the UK) and the IP is not just solely US owned. So, as much as the US might be prepared to consider it, other countries in the R&D loop will be less keen.

There are other issues such as roll out, queue priority etc....

I think the journo has got this arse up and has demonstrated a poor comprehension of what can and can't be done at both political and practical levels.

If India had been involved pre-Singapore entry, then she'd have more leverage. Now? Highly unlikely as too many external variables outside of Lockmarts control are involved.

joey · 07-21-2007, 06:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gf0012-aust

I think the journo has got this arse up and has demonstrated a poor comprehension of what can and can't be done at both political and practical levels.

When did they didnt demostrated poor comprehension? One need to know which Indian journo to read and which reporter to read, A slight angle of being follower of a-la marxism can change his article from nimitz carrying nuke weapons to nimitz not safe for chennai....(citing emission reasons).

gf0012-aust · 07-21-2007, 07:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joey

When did they didnt demostrated poor comprehension? One need to know which Indian journo to read and which reporter to read, A slight angle of being follower of a-la marxism can change his article from nimitz carrying nuke weapons to nimitz not safe for chennai....(citing emission reasons).

sorry, i don't get your point. my explanation is pretty self explanatory. the journos assessment is poor and thus the comments are sub standard at the appreciation level of what can and cannot be achieved.

people who don't understand the basics shouldn't put their opinions in to print - it colours any impression that they actually have understood the broader implications of what is involved in participating in the JSF programme.

joey · 07-21-2007, 07:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gf0012-aust

sorry, i don't get your point. my explanation is pretty self explanatory. the journos assessment is poor and thus the comments are sub standard at the appreciation level of what can and cannot be achieved.

people who don't understand the basics shouldn't put their opinions in to print - it colours any impression that they actually have understood the broader implications of what is involved in participating in the JSF programme.

What I said is that I agreed on your viewpoint about the journo, just gave a larger picture of the media. most of the journos are same, some writes for their vested interests some for political bargains, good journalism on Indian millitary is there but much less, and one need to look right place for it.

gf0012-aust · 07-21-2007, 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joey

What I said is that I agreed on your viewpoint about the journo, just gave a larger picture of the media.

ok, no worries. a loss of translation on my part. Oz certainly appears to have more nongs pretending to be defence journos than we should be prepared to accept.

if it bleeds or can be massaged, then it leads.... accuracy be damned

sohamsri · 04-17-2008, 01:22 AM

i think india did the right thing in ignoring the f-35... we are making fifth gen fighters with russia anyway.

We have two choices :-

1. Buy f-35s, knowing nothing about its technology..... staying on the american mercy....having nighmares in its maintainence

OR

2. Build the fifth gen fighter with russia in which half the work is done by us, and we know about every single piece of technology that is being used....plus we can even design it according to our requirements.

I dont think any1 will defer that the second one is a better choice.

Tronic · 04-17-2008, 03:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sohamsri

i think india did the right thing in ignoring the f-35... we are making fifth gen fighters with russia anyway.

We have two choices :-

1. Buy f-35s, knowing nothing about its technology..... staying on the american mercy....having nighmares in its maintainence

OR

2. Build the fifth gen fighter with russia in which half the work is done by us, and we know about every single piece of technology that is being used....plus we can even design it according to our requirements.

I dont think any1 will defer that the second one is a better choice.

I'm not so sure about "half the work is done by us". Apart from maybe some avionics and some electronic gadgets , I'm sure Indian involvement in the project is more due to money. Second, how can you compare an aircraft which is flying to one which is still on the design board?

Maxor · 04-17-2008, 03:57 AM

One we know nothing about?

Once you have your hands on two or 3 airframes you can take them apart and know pretty well how to duplicate them unless you are more than 3 or 4 generations behind the tech that exists as you are taking it apart. If you are even close to building something comparable you get to skip the R&D phase in reverse engineering (saving millions) if you can't figure out how it works by disasembly then you aren't capable of building soemthing comparable.

Then again I suppose I can understand the worry of not being able to reverse engeneer something when it took more than 20 years to get the LCA operational when you had Flankers and floggers for a significant portion of that time. 20 years isn't that bad if you are starting to dvelop an airplane of that generation for the first time but if you are operating other planes of that generation and have full tech transfer even as a new airframe the development time shouldn't be that long. I'm curious to see how much longer the russian indian military co-operation continues with china helping pakistan more and more and the US wanting a larger role with russian equipment becoming more dated on many fronts.

sohamsri · 04-17-2008, 03:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tronic

I'm not so sure about "half the work is done by us". Apart from maybe some avionics and some electronic gadgets , I'm sure Indian involvement in the project is more due to money. Second, how can you compare an aircraft which is flying to one which is still on the design board?

by the time the us starts thinking about giving us f 35s ( about 2 yrs yrs),
then offers it to india, and indians consider it( 2yrs), and orders it(1 year), and the planes come in finally (5yrs).

10 yrs....

i dont think the indo-russian fighter would still be on the design board by then..

Maxor · 04-17-2008, 03:59 AM

LCA still not mission operational and the project was started in 1983... nope in 10 years you might be off the design board and have a preproduction test bed or tech trial airframe built.

Sorry sohami but the ADA and HAL are well know for their fast military aircraft development.

sohamsri · 04-17-2008, 04:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maxor

One we know nothing about?

Once you have your hands on two or 3 airframes you can take them apart and know pretty well how to duplicate them unless you are more than 3 or 4 generations behind the tech that exists as you are taking it apart. If you are even close to building something comparable you get to skip the R&D phase in reverse engineering (saving millions) if you can't figure out how it works by disasembly then you aren't capable of building soemthing comparable.

Then again I suppose I can understand the worry of not being able to reverse engeneer something when it took more than 20 years to get the LCA operational when you had Flankers and floggers for a significant portion of that time. 20 years isn't that bad if you are starting to dvelop an airplane of that generation for the first time but if you are operating other planes of that generation and have full tech transfer even as a new airframe the development time shouldn't be that long. I'm curious to see how much longer the russian indian military co-operation continues with china helping pakistan more and more and the US wanting a larger role with russian equipment becoming more dated on many fronts.

that would be interesting.. i personally stand for the russians.
you cannot trust us about when they would put sanctions according to their will. and all deals get overlapped.

thats why i hope in the current deal i hope they go for mig 35s which are better than f-18s.

by the way does anyone know when the deadline of this deal is ?

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04-17-2008, 01:22 AM	#10 (permalink)
sohamsri Contributor Join Date: 02-26-08 Location: New Delhi Posts: 594 Country:	i think india did the right thing in ignoring the f-35... we are making fifth gen fighters with russia anyway. We have two choices :- 1. Buy f-35s, knowing nothing about its technology..... staying on the american mercy....having nighmares in its maintainence OR 2. Build the fifth gen fighter with russia in which half the work is done by us, and we know about every single piece of technology that is being used....plus we can even design it according to our requirements. I dont think any1 will defer that the second one is a better choice.

04-17-2008, 03:57 AM	#12 (permalink)
Maxor *Military Professional* Join Date: 11-18-05 Posts: 325	One we know nothing about? Once you have your hands on two or 3 airframes you can take them apart and know pretty well how to duplicate them unless you are more than 3 or 4 generations behind the tech that exists as you are taking it apart. If you are even close to building something comparable you get to skip the R&D phase in reverse engineering (saving millions) if you can't figure out how it works by disasembly then you aren't capable of building soemthing comparable. Then again I suppose I can understand the worry of not being able to reverse engeneer something when it took more than 20 years to get the LCA operational when you had Flankers and floggers for a significant portion of that time. 20 years isn't that bad if you are starting to dvelop an airplane of that generation for the first time but if you are operating other planes of that generation and have full tech transfer even as a new airframe the development time shouldn't be that long. I'm curious to see how much longer the russian indian military co-operation continues with china helping pakistan more and more and the US wanting a larger role with russian equipment becoming more dated on many fronts.

04-17-2008, 03:59 AM	#14 (permalink)
Maxor *Military Professional* Join Date: 11-18-05 Posts: 325	LCA still not mission operational and the project was started in 1983... nope in 10 years you might be off the design board and have a preproduction test bed or tech trial airframe built. Sorry sohami but the ADA and HAL are well know for their fast military aircraft development.

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