New RAF aircraft

**dave angel** · 20 Jun 07,, 13:38

Originally Posted by VarSity

Don't know about that. If there was an extension to the runway, I think the Pebble Island raid by the SAS would have been repeated.

Also the runway at Stanley was under observation so any attack that was launched would have been seen and an interception planned.

Question for those in the know. Does the UK now operate any long range bomber? Something that could strike the runway at Stanley should the Falklands fall again?
Im aware that alot of in-flight refueling would be needed but is there a suitable aircraft in the UK's inventory?

a very much larger force would be required, ergo more helicopters, ergo more ships, ergo much more chance of the incomming flotilla being detected and interdicted by the Argentine aircraft based on the islands. SF raids tend to work because, among other things, thery are small in number. sending enough blokes to seriously damage the usefullness of the Aircraft/Airfield before the locally based regular troops could intervene and overcome what are lightly armed troops would be an invasion.

We don't have a LR bomber because we don't need one. we have TLAM.

its known that Nimrod MR4A could act as an LR bomber - Paveway III, Stormshadow ALCM, ALARM and JDAM - and with refuelling (much less than Vulcan) it could hit Stanley from Ascension, but TLAM is much safer and just as accurate.

**Kernow** · 20 Jun 07,, 22:00

Originally Posted by dave angel

no idea about its maintainence footprint, but if you've got a decent runway - and your other options are F-16, Typhoon etc.. its utter crap, but if you've not got a decent runway and your options are Harrier or... err... nothing its a godsend.

V/VSTOL aircraft are relatively slow, carry relatively small payloads and have relatively limited range, however in the Falklands Harriers shot down some 15 Argentine Skyhawks and Mirages and other much faster jets than itself with no A2A losses, Harrier GR9 is cleared for - and uses - all the modern stuff like PavewayIV and EPWIII, AGM-65G2 and Brimstone, so its no slouch.

The Harrier in the Falklands managed to shoot down so many Argentine Aircraft by using a method called Viffing, this was turned into a fine art by the RAF Pilots. The Harrier would see a Skyhawk or a Mirage on its tail, and just before the aircraft opened fire, the RAF pilots would stall the Harrier i.e. invert tyhe thrusters making the aircraft almost stop in mid air and go up, the enemy aircraft would then over shoot the Harrier, the Harrier would then resume normal flight and left off a missile or two and bang down goes the Argie.

Well done Crab Air.

**glyn** · 20 Jun 07,, 23:56

Originally Posted by Cornishchunky

The Harrier in the Falklands managed to shoot down so many Argentine Aircraft by using a method called Viffing, this was turned into a fine art by the RAF Pilots. The Harrier would see a Skyhawk or a Mirage on its tail, and just before the aircraft opened fire, the RAF pilots would stall the Harrier i.e. invert tyhe thrusters making the aircraft almost stop in mid air and go up, the enemy aircraft would then over shoot the Harrier, the Harrier would then resume normal flight and left off a missile or two and bang down goes the Argie.

Well done Crab Air.

Not so, fellow Janner.

The first to use Viffing was the US Marine Corps. The Harrier is now used as a bomb truck. It was the Fleet Air Arms Sea Harriers that were dedicated fighters - until our lousy government retired them to save money

**Kernow** · 21 Jun 07,, 00:22

Originally Posted by glyn

Not so, fellow Janner.

The first to use Viffing was the US Marine Corps. The Harrier is now used as a bomb truck. It was the Fleet Air Arms Sea Harriers that were dedicated fighters - until our lousy government retired them to save money

I stand corrected, still good flying though don't you think?

**Tin Man** · 21 Jun 07,, 15:31

I did read an interesting article about so called "dog-fighting" during op`Corporate. A Sea Harrier pilot reckoned that the closest they came to a real dogfight in the whole war, was when they first engaged the Mirage III`s. The Mirages fired a coulple of R530`s but didn`t stay around to illuminate the Sea Harriers, instead they turned away and got shot down with `winders, one going up a Mirage tailpipe, which is not unusual for a sidewinder!

On the A4, I believe it`s a pretty nimble machine relatively clean, unfortunately for the Argentine pilots they usually encountered the SHARS when laden with bombs, so no contest really.

I do agree that Galtieri didn`t think the UK would turn up or have the will to fight a war 8,000 miles from home. He kept his best troops at home and filled the islands with conscripts to fight pro` soldiers, not a good idea, the British army rolled them up position by position.

As for long range attack options, the MRA4 might be better equipped to do that, but the MR.1`s were equipped at the time for ASW/anti-shipping role.

A single R1 version possibly carried out recon` off the South American coast, based on San Felix Island (Chile).
Not sure if the MR.1`s could have been adapted as bombers, ie, ECM fit, Shrike carriage, Nav/attack capabilities, IFR? etc, etc even though it`s Nav` kit was excellent by definition as a maritme patrol aircraft... In any case, the Vulcan could do it better and that was it`s job.

**Silent Hunter** · 15 Dec 07,, 17:53

When was the last time a British aircraft got an air-to-air kill?

**Jimmy** · 15 Dec 07,, 18:32

I would guess Argentina. They didnt get any during Desert Storm, and I cant think of any engagements since then.

**Tin Man** · 16 Dec 07,, 03:32

Actually, if we are splitting hairs, a Tornado GR-1 killed an Iraqi Mig as it took off during GW1 in 1991. It was actually airborne when bombs landed near it! Does that count!
I read that a Tornado F.3 was in an excellent position to shoot down an Iraqi aircraft in GW1 but was told to knock off by an orbiting AWACS. A political decision was made quickly to allow a Saudi, RSAF F-15 to get the kill.

The air to air kills in 1982 were by RAF crews driving RN Sea Harriers. An RAF and RN pilot both shared highest kill tally.

Then there was the time when an RAF Phantom shot down an RAF Jaguar with a sidewinder in April 1982 over Germany.......that counts I guess.

)

**Jimmy** · 16 Dec 07,, 16:53

I love random stories like that. Everybody talks about how the F-15C is undefeated. Well, one was actually shot down air-to-air...a Japanese pilot gave his wingman a Sidewinder. Oops.

A Strike Eagle hit an Iraqi helo with an LGB, too. They were supporting special forces troops, and the Iraqis had helo support...I think it had just dropped off more troops and had taken off. Well, they kept the laser on the helo and the bomb actually guided right into it. Apparently the spec forces survived, because they supported the pilot's report.

**Tin Man** · 16 Dec 07,, 23:40

Originally Posted by Jimmy

I love random stories like that. Everybody talks about how the F-15C is undefeated. Well, one was actually shot down air-to-air...a Japanese pilot gave his wingman a Sidewinder. Oops.

A Strike Eagle hit an Iraqi helo with an LGB, too. They were supporting special forces troops, and the Iraqis had helo support...I think it had just dropped off more troops and had taken off. Well, they kept the laser on the helo and the bomb actually guided right into it. Apparently the spec forces survived, because they supported the pilot's report.

Jimmy, I heard that story too! I wonder if it was classed as an A2A kill, the thing was airborne right? I also heard another slant. The Iraqi pilot was trying the Doppler shift rope-a-dope in the hover but failed miserably when he was designated by a laser, OUCH!

**Jimmy** · 17 Dec 07,, 00:25

I've heard they counted it as an A2A, but I havent looked it up personally.

I doubt the other slant though...if the Strike Eagle was engaging with LGBs, his radar was in an A2G mode. I cant say for sure, but I doubt the helo pilot would've had any idea there was an inbound jet...Soviet era RWR gear sucked to begin with, and I doubt he could've gotten any indications from an APG70 in A2G. If he did know, and he WAS trying to hide like that, he didn't know much about A2A tactics (being a helo pilot, I guess that's understandable). There's no way he was hiding from ANYTHING by doing that.