Jimmy

Considering the cuts that were made to the final production number, I wouldnt be surprised if that already happened. Something like less than a quarter of the initial request, if I remember right.

Edit: Not that I thought replacing F-15Cs on a 1 for 1 basis was a good use of money, however.

xrough

Why should Japan bail out Lockheed?


Despite its role as the Pentagon's top contractor, Lockheed Martin is searching for some good news after a remarkable series of setbacks in recent months.

First came the cancellation of the company's contract to build a second "littoral combat ship" for the US Navy after its first ship in the series was plagued by cost overruns and design problems.

Then the US Coast Guard took over the management of its multibillion-dollar "Deepwater" modernization plan from Lockheed Martin and Northrop Grumman. The decision was due in large part to dangerous flaws in the new coast guard cutters the firms were developing.

Last but not least, the company's most high-profile product of all, the US presidential helicopter, has generated widespread criticism based on high costs and poor performance.

With weapons-procurement dollars likely to tighten up as the costs of replacing equipment damaged in Iraq come home to roost, these hits to the company's reputation could strengthen the hand of members of the US Congress seeking cuts in its two lucrative combat-aircraft programs, the F-22 and the F-35.

The F-22 - the most expensive combat aircraft ever built at a total unit cost of more than $300 million per unit - is particularly vulnerable. The Pentagon has already cut back its proposed order of the aircraft from an original goal of 750 planes to current plans to purchase 183. Further cuts are not out of the question.

This is where the government of conservative Japanese Prime Minister Shinzo Abe comes into play. He hopes to make Japan the first foreign purchaser of the F-22, in a deal that could be worth $20 billion or more for 100 planes.

A deal on this scale would be a huge shot in the arm for Lockheed Martin's aircraft division. A foreign sale of 100 planes would be more than half of the US government's proposed purchase of the F-22. It would keep Lockheed Martin's Georgia and Texas production lines for the plane open for years beyond the projected shutdown date of 2011, during which time legislators from those states could press for additional purchases by the Pentagon.

But there are a number of obstacles between Lockheed Martin and its "deal of the century". First, exports of the F-22 are currently barred by US law. But industry analysts are convinced that Lockheed Martin boosters in Congress could get this provision lifted if the deal looks like a real prospect.

The most important set of concerns has to do with the danger of spurring an arms race in Asia. South Korean officials have expressed alarm at the prospect of Japan receiving F-22s, and have said they will argue for their own purchase of the planes if they are provided to Tokyo. And China would no doubt feel the need to upgrade its own air force in response, especially in light of a US effort to persuade Taiwan to buy $10 billion worth of US-built submarines and aircraft.

The last thing the US government should be doing is taking a step to undermine relations with China at a time when Beijing's help is needed to consolidate the deal to curb North Korea's nuclear program.

Japan already has highly capable F-15 combat aircraft from the United States, along with the technology to build significant components for them. This is more than adequate to deal with China's current capabilities, particularly considering that Japan is allied with the US, whose military far outpaces China's in every respect.

If the time comes when Japan needs a new fighter, the less expensive F-35 - also built by Lockheed Martin - would be a reasonable alternative.

To a significant degree, Abe's desire for F-22s is based on the alleged prestige that would flow from being the first country to receive the aircraft from the US. This is not an adequate reason to increase tensions in Asia.

As for Lockheed Martin, it is a highly diversified military contractor that can look elsewhere for a big "win" to distract attention from its recent troubles. If the F-22 program is having a hard time making it in the US, it shouldn't be bailed out by making a questionable deal in Asia.

__________________

reve893

it is the most advance plane we have. Thus we should not export it, until we have better planes in the sky. Who nows Japan might not be so friendly in a couple of years. We need to dominate the world.

xrough

I agree about not selling the F-22 but the world domination idea is negative, though I acknowledge the fact that US has all what it takes but we are in a global affiars one should not think of it..

Tin Man

Hmm, reading between those lines I can see the F-22 being "showcased" for the benefit of China with that deployment?
In terms of F-22 procurement requests by Japan, at present, as has been mentioned, it is currently illegal and violates FMS in the US. I think strategically, Japan can present a better case for an F-22 requirement than say, Australia, which doesn`t really face a local threat of any significance...

Japan being an ally, and throwing in of the "PRC threat" card could help sway opinion in the US? Maybe? I think Japan could eventually get its F-22, if they can stump up the cash, but not yet... I think more likely would the permanent basing of USAF F-22s in the region to address the PRC threat , as a token. This would keep the senate happy I suppose....

__________________
"Liberty is a thing beyond all price.

jaehkimx

Back before the Yom Kippur war, we did not have blogs, but we had similar conversations about the huge numbers of Syrian and Egyptian MIG 21s and the pitiful numbers of Neshers that the IAF had. Well....we all know what the IAF did with those MIG 21s in their poor little Neshers. And, during the Vietnam war, I saw adults scratch their heads and wonder how those little asians with their Korean war era MIG 17s were downing space age F4s with IR and radar guided air intercept missiles.

In the end, it is the pilot in the systems management seat who is going to win the next engagement. Put a young man 90% pumped full of patriotic pride into a J 10 (10% actual flight training), paint a poster picture of and constantly extolling the virtues of a pure (now rich) communist state. Match him up against a cold and calculating young man, brought up with sony play station, cynical and very well trained in live fire exercises, in an F-15 with all the whistles and bells that the second largest economy in the world can bring to bear. Who is going to die? The idealistic communist. So, EFA Typhoon, Rafale, JSF....... doesn't matter. Until we get the unmanned fighters, its the man in the cockpit who will do the killing.

Ucar

http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/weapons/RS22684.pdf

Perhaps the latest Congressional Report may shed some light on the issue. They are now updating the congress about Japan's interest in the Raptor. I think this indicated that Japan may soon make a move for the aircraft.

Jimmy

Personally I think it was more a show for North Korea. China's not looking to start anything soon, not against the US.

Scrapdog

OK dude, wait a second...what data do you have that says F-22's can't fight alone well? They can fight plenty well by themselves...and their datalink is optimized at just that. The fuel issue - yes of course...like every fighter out there you obviously need tanker support. But to say F-22's can't fight well by themselves is highly bold or ignorant, or both - and I'm here to tell you that's plain incorrect.

Scrapdog

True, to some degree. HOWEVER, the F-22 is still a very effecient and advanced killing machine, even with a relatively decent, yet not stellar operator. And the F-22 does a lot of killing in conjunction with the man in the cockpit, i.e. they work together quite a bit - not just the man by himself who does the killing.

jaehkimx

Yes, better tools, better work. And, since Japan can afford it, I hope they get the deal. It will help the US defense industry to remain viable for future threats. But my point is that for the JASDF, the F-15J is more than enough to down any incoming red chinese threat. There is all this hype about how great those Sukhoi's are. Loads of hogwash. A seasoned Russian test pilot on vodka bravado demo-ing one just doesn't show what they will do in combat. I just cannot see the difference for a F15J or a F22 downing an incoming Sukhoi 30 flown by a PLANAF pilot.

military

i personaly think that it would be a good idea for the u.s to sell japan the f/a 22 rapter. however we maybe shouldn't sell them to any foreign nation until the u.s builds its own fleet. and if the u.s does end up selling them, japan most likely will not be the first customer. the first counties to get it would probably be israel, south korea, saudi arabia and then japan.

Stan187

Kindly go over to the introduction forum and tell us a bit about yourself please.

Oh and Saudi Arabia is not getting the F-22, nor would they ever get it before Japan.

__________________
In Iran people belive pepsi stands for pay each penny save israel. -urmomma158
The Russian Navy is still a threat, but only to those unlucky enough to be Russian sailors.-highsea

military

the reason i said that the saudis will get the f/a 22 before japan is because that u.s has givin them f-16s, f-15s, awacs radar planes, and even that m1a2 abrams tanks. the saudis also spend more money on their military 10% of GDP compared to japan who only spends .8% of GDP so the saudis will have a better chance of affording it.

Stan187

As percentage of GDP yes, but Japan's overall GDP is roughly 13.6 times the over GDP of Saudi Arabia.

The Egyptians also get Abrams tanks, but they are never the latests versions. The difference often amounts to generations worth, and the tanks given for export by the US are dumbed-down.

Finally, about a year ago, the Saudis inked a deal to acquire the Eurofighter Typhoon, so its pretty doubtful that they would get the F-22 because:
A. The US isn't about to offer it to them
B. They already bought another fighter, a multi-role one, but a capable fighter at that.