Japan Lobbying for F-22 Buy - Page 4

Archer · 05-06-2007, 05:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wp2000

Oh well, one last time: I think Japan's F22 attempt is more for a long term solution. It's not about specific technical comparisons against PLAAF. It's a more strategic step in the coming arms race with China.

Perhaps..but my point is that it can manage without the F-22 as well if PLAAF remains without adequate number of supporting assets.

Quote:

That's why how good is KJ2000 or how many refuelers does china have, are not the main focuses.

It does matter, since the numbers of the former impact the PLAAF performance, and that will impact whether PLAAF can do without the F-22 or not.

Quote:

A bit off topic (This is about Japan's F22), if you truely believe Indian phalcon is the state of the art AWACS system, then you'd better think about the fact that China had been working with Israle on the same IL76 based Phalcon for quite a few years in the 90s. The first chinese phalcon was only months away for delivery before it was cancelled. And after the cancellation, it only took china 4 years to start producing KJ2000s which look exactly the same as the cancelled Phalcon. And China rejected Russian A50 system, as India did too.

I doubt this train of thought - its a bit too convenient for my liking and ignores the PRCs substantial defence R&D budget and their own work on airborne radars. The PRC ordered Phalcons, cut due to US pressure, and Israel was told in no uncertain terms to back off. Then would they be silly enough to transfer technology and get the AWACS in a Sinicized version?
No- I dont think so. 4 years is entirely a respectable period to get an airborne AWACs ready. In India, the DRDO AEW&C with a limited budget, I wager quite smaller than the PRC one, has been given a timeframe of 78 months to deliver its stuff, and the Tx/Rx modules and other stuff are already ready.
The PRC has a substantial history of radar development, and displayed Tx/Rx modules way back in the late 90's. Even if they were not state of the art or whatever, they were a respectable attempt to get to grips with the tech.
So, I am reasonably sure that the KJ-2000 is "adequate", but it wont be a Phalcon in terms of ECCM, or resolution, targets tracked etc. Or a complete battle management platform as the Phalcon is being configured for.
But it should be sufficient for its role of AEW&C and vectoring a squadrons worth or so.

Quote:

See, I don't need too much inside information, but some analysis are enough to make me realise one thing: if I don't know about something then I should not assume that thing is bad. Actually, in chinese sayings, I'd rather take what I am told to make my plans.

I dont assume that the KJ-2000 is "bad"- but nor do I take stuff like what TP wrote- about the KJ being awesome and all, without corroborating evidence.

tphuang · 05-06-2007, 06:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jimmy

You're talking about an air force that still has a sizable amount of Korean and Vietnam era fighters in its inventory.

well, it's about the threat you are facing and what you are ordering in. For example, 051C and 956EM are both capable platforms that are probably 2 generations ahead of the Ludas in PLAN. However, they don't meet the PLAN requirement at all imo. In that case, do you go with the indigenous route or the export route?

Quote:

I dont assume that the KJ-2000 is "bad"- but nor do I take stuff like what TP wrote- about the KJ being awesome and all, without corroborating evidence.

com'on now, I've been nice enough to not even make a comment on it.

Archer · 05-06-2007, 07:32 AM

I was referring to this:

"you obviously have missed the amount of new AEW&C and surveillence platforms that PLAAF has inducted in the past few years. I'm not saying they are as good as E-3, but they are extremely capable platforms."

But we dont know anything about their capabilities!

Range, Targets tracked, sensor fusion, ECCM..!

wp2000 · 05-07-2007, 07:14 AM

Fair enough, Arthur.
We undestand each other. My point is that JSDAF can't re-gain their advantage without F22. And your point is JSDAF can just upgrade the existing 300 F15J, F2 and F4 planes to maintain a sizeable lead.

As of KJ2000, well, 4 years is definitely not enough to build an AESA AWACS. China had been working with Iseral on Phalcon since early 90s for more than 4 years. Before the cancelled final delivery, many things had exchanged hands already. Before that, China had been working on their own AWACS systems for decades. All of these things combined into KJ2000 in 4 years time, not that they did all these things in 4 years.

outofshdw · 05-09-2007, 18:38 PM

Another news article on Japan's bid to purchase the F-22:
Japan asks USA to ease fighter export restrictions-01/05/2007-Tokyo-Flight International

The first thing that the Japanese need to do, if they want to ever buy the F-22, is convince the US Congress to repeal a law which currently restricts the US government from even discussing a potential F-22 sale with potential buyers (much less close a deal). Until that law is repealed, no technical data pertinent to a sale request can be exchanged.

Looks like the campaign has begun.

Canmoore · 05-09-2007, 20:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blademaster

US should go for it. It will only help them in the long run. If Japan orders 100, it will lower the price drastically for US Air Force, allowing them to buy more, which in turn, lowers the price even more creating more incentive to buy more F-22s. The Pentagon should going out on all cylinders and getting Japan to buy the F-22s. Not only that, they should sell them to Australia. I am not sure about Israel. I hope Canada will buy those planes but highly unlikely.

If the price tag drops, and more countries like Japan buy into it, then...perhaps. Giant military purchases of state of the art, high tech weapons/vehicles is not something you see happen to often here in Canada. Politicians hear rule by the vote, not common sense. And there are a lot of bleeding hearts in Canada who vote.

More than likely what will happen, is once the CF-18's are retired, we will replace then with super hornets. And if the military is really lucky, the politicians might give them a lolly pop in the form of a few J35's. But the F22? I HIGHLY dought it, not unless the price tag drastically drops, and more countries buy into it, so that it is not so much a representation of "American" military power and influence.

Inst · 05-12-2007, 17:22 PM

So, what's known about Chinese espionage in Japan?

**Ironduke** · 05-13-2007, 04:00 AM

I think we should be careful whom we sell 5G fighters to. Japan shouldn't pose a risk, I don't think they can ever stand accused of transferring our military technology to third states. UK, Australia, and Canada should also be given the option of purchasing the F-22.

**Ironduke** · 05-14-2007, 04:57 AM

The US military has wrapped up what seems to be a showcasing of the F-22s at Okinawa... read between the lines?

Quote:

F-22's Wrap up Okinawa Deployment

TOKYO - A dozen F-22 stealth fighters are heading back to the United States after completing their first overseas mission, a four-month deployment to Okinawa aimed at showcasing the fighter's capabilities and giving pilots a chance to train in a new setting.

The fighters, which arrived on the southern Japan island of Okinawa in February, will fly out of Kadena Air Base early Thursday, the Air Force and Japan's Foreign Ministry said in separate statements. The fighters are based at Langely Air Force Base in Virginia.

The deployment, the first outside of the United States for the Air Force's newest and most expensive fighter, was intended to show off the F-22's strengths in a region with a complex security balance that is being challenged by the rapid growth of Chinese and North Korean military power.

The mission also was aimed at providing training opportunities for the pilots and enhancing cooperation with the Japanese military.

During their deployment on Okinawa, the fighters conducted joint training with the Japanese. Two F-22A Raptors and two F-15 Eagles took part in the training, which involved mock air battles with four F-4 Phantoms and four F-15 Eagles from Japan's Air Self-Defense Force.

Japan's Defense Minister Fumio Kyuma said the deployment of the stealth fighters was part of ongoing efforts to improve technology and train at working together.

Under a mutual defense past, the United States has roughly 50,000 troops in Japan, and the two countries have been strengthening the interoperability of their forces in recent years with Japan hoping to take a more active role in regional security.

Officials say there are no plans to regularly bring F-22s to Japan after the current mission ends. F-22 fighters are scheduled to be deployed in Alaska and possibly Hawaii, which would give a significant boost to the Air Force's firepower in the Pacific.

The U.S. is not alone in boosting its air capabilities in Asia.

China is rapidly modernizing its military, and recently unveiled its J-10 fighter, which is believed to be one of the most advanced warplanes used by any air force in the world today, though it is not seen as a serious technological rival to the F-22.

Source: F-22's Wrap up Okinawa Deployment

hello · 05-14-2007, 10:15 AM

It looks like the F-22s beat the F-15Js(it's predecessor's variant) and F-4s(it's grand-predecessor) really hard, enough to make Japan want to buy them. If the U.S ever wants to sell the F-22, they have a clear way of advertising here.

Jimmy · 05-14-2007, 10:59 AM

Too bad they've been whooping our own F-15s for years and Congress is still playing Scrooge McDuck.

GVChamp · 05-14-2007, 20:24 PM

From the sound of it, most people are seeing that the F-22 is even better than anticipated.
If I were an enemy of the United States, I'd be very, very worried. And if I were Russia and China, I would seriously cut back on aircraft procurement.

Blademaster · 05-14-2007, 21:41 PM

... and spend more money on US lobbyists that lobby for butter rather than guns issues as a last-ditch attempt to sabotage the F-22 program.

GVChamp · 05-15-2007, 00:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blademaster

... and spend more money on US lobbyists that lobby for butter rather than guns issues as a last-ditch attempt to sabotage the F-22 program.

Or at least limit the USAF's budget for new ones. I don't think the program is going to be abandoned this late in the game.

Of course, giving F-22s to our most reliable allies essentially means that it won't matter, since they'll pick up the slack that we drop.

hello · 05-15-2007, 13:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GVChamp

From the sound of it, most people are seeing that the F-22 is even better than anticipated.
If I were an enemy of the United States, I'd be very, very worried. And if I were Russia and China, I would seriously cut back on aircraft procurement.

F-22s can't win a war alone. They can't fight alone that well either. They need AWACS, tankers, logistics, good pilots, etc. for maximum effectiveness. If the user doesn't have that, then the F-22s are suddenly not so good. They can still dominate enemy planes in the air but are useless if they're stuck on the ground for some reason.

However, any country that has the money to buy the F-22s will probably have the infrastructure to support them too.

The best to get a bombing attack past 4 F-22s is to use 50 J-10s. You'll lose over 32 of them, but at least 4-5 will pull through...

05-09-2007, 18:38 PM	#50 (permalink)
outofshdw Regular Join Date: 06-03-06 Posts: 53	The Lobbying Campaign Heats Up Another news article on Japan's bid to purchase the F-22: Japan asks USA to ease fighter export restrictions-01/05/2007-Tokyo-Flight International The first thing that the Japanese need to do, if they want to ever buy the F-22, is convince the US Congress to repeal a law which currently restricts the US government from even discussing a potential F-22 sale with potential buyers (much less close a deal). Until that law is repealed, no technical data pertinent to a sale request can be exchanged. Looks like the campaign has begun.

05-13-2007, 04:00 AM	#53 (permalink)
Ironduke Burgomaster Join Date: 08-02-03 Location: Minneapolis Posts: 6,803 Country:	I think we should be careful whom we sell 5G fighters to. Japan shouldn't pose a risk, I don't think they can ever stand accused of transferring our military technology to third states. UK, Australia, and Canada should also be given the option of purchasing the F-22. __________________ The Buck Stops Here

05-14-2007, 20:24 PM	#57 (permalink)
GVChamp Patron Join Date: 08-25-06 Location: Chicago Posts: 244	From the sound of it, most people are seeing that the F-22 is even better than anticipated. If I were an enemy of the United States, I'd be very, very worried. And if I were Russia and China, I would seriously cut back on aircraft procurement. __________________ "The great questions of the day will not be settled by means of speeches and majority decisions but by iron and blood"-Otto Von Bismarck

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05-06-2007, 07:32 AM	#48 (permalink)
Archer *Senior Contributor* Join Date: 10-13-03 Posts: 2,888	I was referring to this: "you obviously have missed the amount of new AEW&C and surveillence platforms that PLAAF has inducted in the past few years. I'm not saying they are as good as E-3, but they are extremely capable platforms." But we dont know anything about their capabilities! Range, Targets tracked, sensor fusion, ECCM..!

05-07-2007, 07:14 AM	#49 (permalink)
wp2000 Banished Join Date: 12-02-06 Posts: 48 Country:	Fair enough, Arthur. We undestand each other. My point is that JSDAF can't re-gain their advantage without F22. And your point is JSDAF can just upgrade the existing 300 F15J, F2 and F4 planes to maintain a sizeable lead. As of KJ2000, well, 4 years is definitely not enough to build an AESA AWACS. China had been working with Iseral on Phalcon since early 90s for more than 4 years. Before the cancelled final delivery, many things had exchanged hands already. Before that, China had been working on their own AWACS systems for decades. All of these things combined into KJ2000 in 4 years time, not that they did all these things in 4 years.

05-12-2007, 17:22 PM	#52 (permalink)
Inst Patron Join Date: 12-17-06 Posts: 197	So, what's known about Chinese espionage in Japan?

05-14-2007, 10:15 AM	#55 (permalink)
hello Contributor Join Date: 05-31-05 Posts: 683	It looks like the F-22s beat the F-15Js(it's predecessor's variant) and F-4s(it's grand-predecessor) really hard, enough to make Japan want to buy them. If the U.S ever wants to sell the F-22, they have a clear way of advertising here.

05-14-2007, 10:59 AM	#56 (permalink)
Jimmy *Military Professional* Join Date: 11-16-05 Posts: 931 Country:	Too bad they've been whooping our own F-15s for years and Congress is still playing Scrooge McDuck.

05-14-2007, 21:41 PM	#58 (permalink)
Blademaster Military Enthusiast *Senior Contributor* Join Date: 08-15-03 Posts: 3,050	... and spend more money on US lobbyists that lobby for butter rather than guns issues as a last-ditch attempt to sabotage the F-22 program.

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