Tasman

APA certainly looked at and proposed a major F111 upgrade, and whilst details remain proprietary they did include the options you have mentioned. The proposal for an Evolved F111 were, however, rejected by the RAAF. I think they worried about ending up with an orphan aircraft flown by no other country. The age of the airframes and the fact that much of their flying has been at low level would probably have been another factor. The APA submission, though, did make a case that countered these concerns and suggested that an Evolved F111/F-22 mix would be the most cost effective and low risk solution to the RAAF's requirement for a new air combat cabability.

Here is a link to an article called Pigs Forever on the APA site:

Pigs Forever? [F-111 Supercruise]

I have confidence in the SH as the Block II version which the RAAF will get is, IMO, a very capable multi purpose fighter.

Cheers

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Learn from the past. Prepare for the future.

wp2000

Obviously you don't know about PLAAF's KJ2000 and KJ200 AWACS/AEW planes. Don't be surprised next year if India's Phalcon look exactly the same as KJ2000.

Also, not all of the 300 BVR JSDAF planes can fire ARH missiles. JSDAF's F15s have been in service for a long time. Last time I checked they are still in the upgrade process to be able to fire AIM120 or AAM4.

Whereas PLAAF/PLANAF have 300+ Flankers, 100+J10s (130+ produced), 160-200 BVR capable J8F/H/D and 40 BVR capable JH7A as of now. And each year PLAAF/PLANAF is adding 15-20 J11, 40-50+ J10s and 20+ JH7As

Now, I think we all agree that JSDAF has been using F15 supported by a large number of various EW planes for a long time. That's a huge amount of advantage against PLAAF.
But PLAAF are now catching up very quickly especially in the last 3-4 years with all the new BVR fighter jets, various EW planes. Although they are at the early stages of the learning curve, but their curve is very steep, whereas JSDAF is at the later or end stage which is a plateau. That's why unless JSDAF introduces brand new platforms they are not going to develop too much new experiences or tactics while watching PLAAF improving day by day.

wp2000

How will PLAAF match JSDAF? 800 J10+J11/Flankers by the end of 2012. Would that be enough for JSDAF to think carefully?

What should JSDAF do accordingly is the question of this thread.

You are right to say that JSDAF can simply upgrade or buy F15 with AESA/AIM120C7 etc to counter current PLAAF.

But, as I said above, JSDAF used to enjoy complete dominance in east asia's sky. Before mid 90s, PLAAF/PLANAF were non-existent to JSDAF. Do you think JSDAF still has such huge lead against PLAAF now? More importantly, with those upgraded F15s and F2s, do you really think JSDAF will re-gain their huge lead in the next 10 years?

Obviously, JSDAF does not want to give up their lead so easily and they want to keep it against PLAAF in the next decade, that's why they want F22.

So, the most important thing is the trend, the dynamics, not the static snap shot of the current situation, that worries Japan and Taiwan.

Dreadnought

Japan has survived and prospered for so long only because of massive US economic and military support. In the long run, it will be quite irrelevant in comparison with China, just as most of the west including the US will be.

Yeah ok. Funny some 62 years later after WWII we still seem to be the top dog and will be for along time to come my friend. Irregardless of what China does.

__________________
Fortitude.....The strength to persist...The courage to endure.

tphuang

I'm not sure that I want to predict what plaaf will have by 2012. If there is one thing I've seen recently, it is that plaaf changes very fast. And it has to, simply put, in the next 5 years, there is nothing that's going to come out available to China that will fit the requirements of plaaf. sk are old and junk, mkk are totally overrated and practically useless, J-10/J-11B have some potential, but still over matched by what they will likely face. The carrier fighter that China gets will be the 2nd worst naval fighter in the world. Basically, plaaf has far more to worry about than JSADF.

Officer of Engineers

For Pete sakes, any air war between China and Japan is easy to predict. Where is the war being fought? Draw a line between coast and Japan's coast. Anything over 75% of the line on the Japanese line belongs to Japan. Everything else belongs to China.

Two words - loiter time. The Japanese can keep more planes over their share of the line alot longer than the Chinese.

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Chimo

wp2000

Again, it's about the trend: The worrying situation for PLAAF has been improving although they still have a long way to catch up to get into a comfort zone. But for other guys, the worrying situation caused by PLAAF is worsening. 10 years ago, JSDAF can basically ignore PLAAF. Now they can't.

Archer

What is the performance of the KJ-2000? For all the talk about it, theres precious little information.

Also, even if the PLAAF has 800 fighters, what of the loiter time, support assets as OOE pointed out? In terms of avionics, I'd go with the F-15J/DJ especially if upgraded. Plus theres the US which will definitely be involved on the JASDFs side.

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Karmani Vyapurutham Dhanuhu

My bow is stretched for its task

wp2000

Oh well, one last time: I think Japan's F22 attempt is more for a long term solution. It's not about specific technical comparisons against PLAAF. It's a more strategic step in the coming arms race with China.

That's why how good is KJ2000 or how many refuelers does china have, are not the main focuses.

A bit off topic (This is about Japan's F22), if you truely believe Indian phalcon is the state of the art AWACS system, then you'd better think about the fact that China had been working with Israle on the same IL76 based Phalcon for quite a few years in the 90s. The first chinese phalcon was only months away for delivery before it was cancelled. And after the cancellation, it only took china 4 years to start producing KJ2000s which look exactly the same as the cancelled Phalcon. And China rejected Russian A50 system, as India did too.

See, I don't need too much inside information, but some analysis are enough to make me realise one thing: if I don't know about something then I should not assume that thing is bad. Actually, in chinese sayings, I'd rather take what I am told to make my plans.

Stan

is no one interested in buying the eurofighter?

Its a much better aircraft than anything china will have for some time and its probably the best 4.5 gen plane out there.

wp2000

Quite true.

But the problems are 1. Political realities 2. although eurofighter is cheaper than F22, Japan has enough cash to go for the best. 3. existing US tech based or derived systems.

It would be a quite interesting even if Japan chooses eurofighter though, at least it would make US think harder.

Stan

i m just saying this because i would rather the uk flogged all its euro fighters and just bought F-22

I mean if any one should be able to buy f-22 from the US it should be the UK and if not I have it on good authority we will throw every starbucks employee in the river.


But seriously Japan should be thinking about either the JSF or the Eurofighter.

tphuang

It actually doesn't make sense for China to get any of the so called 4.5 generation planes out there like typhoone, Rafale and su-35 even if they are available. If you factor in the export downgrade, the fact that they still can't hope to compete with F-22/35 and the time it would take for these planes to get delivered. Where at the current time, you could continuously upgrade J-10/11 and get them at cheaper cost.

Stan

i meant and i think others understood that japan should look into buying the euro as china wont be able to match it for some time

Jimmy

You're talking about an air force that still has a sizable amount of Korean and Vietnam era fighters in its inventory.