tphuang

jasdf can kill plaaf? you need to take a look at the missiles used on both sides.

Archer

Theres also the issue of training and support assets, in which one would favour the Japanese.

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JBG

Tasman, when the England letter etc came out what was not said was that we had never requested that the FMS ( foreign military sales ) process with regard to sensitive technology was initiated. So there really was no refusal by the US, per se. That is one of the things that irks me about the super hornet buy - the aircraft does not bridge the capability gap which is all about the F-111 rather than the F-18.

Spoonman, we do not have 25 years. We have been safe and warm etc because our aircraft had grossly superior capabilities. Our Mirage 111s were the best in the region when in service. The Canbera's were the best by far in service in the region in their time. Now some of our neighbours have F-18s of their own, Su-30 series aircraft etc. The us then daylight gap does not apply to anywhere near the same extent as it used to. Besides which, without F-111s, how are we going to put the fear of god into the Indonesians next time we want to play about in East Timor, or Balli, or Iryan Jaya with only shor range F-18 series aircraft?

Sheesh, we are replacing a good strike bomber and a good fighter bomber with a fighter bomber alone? No sale here at this time but I am keen to hear your take on the situation.

Jonathan

JBG

Tasman, when the England letter etc came out what was not said was that we had never requested that the FMS ( foreign military sales ) process with regard to sensitive technology was initiated. So there really was no refusal by the US, per se. That is one of the things that irks me about the super hornet buy - the aircraft does not bridge the capability gap which is all about the F-111 rather than the F-18.

Spoonman, we do not have 25 years. We have been safe and warm etc because our aircraft ha superior capabilities. Now some of our neighbours have F-18s of their own, Su-30 series aircraft etc. The us then daylight does not apply to anywhere near the same extent as it used to. Besides which, without F-111s, how are we going to put the fear of god into the Indonesians next time we want to play about in East Timor, or Balli, or Iryan Jaya with only shor range F-18 series aircraft?

Sheesh, we are replacing a good strike bomber and a good fighter bomber with a fighter bomber alone? No sale here at this time but I am keen to hear your take on the situation.

Jonathan

wp2000

Hardware wise(quantity and BVR capable fighters etc...) , PLAAF now has a minor upper hand against Jasdf.

But, Jasdf does enjoy a much longer history of modern air combat system, which, IMHO, actually gives Jasdf upper hand in actual combat capabilities.

Of course, the real worry to Japan is the trend: 10 years ago, Japan enjoyed overwhelming advantage against PLAAF both in hardwares and "softwares".

Now the picture has changed a lot and PLAAF is still modernising at a very speed.

If Jasdf still wants to re-gain the complete advantage over PLAAF like 10-20 years ago, the only hope is to get F22. Otherwise Jasdf has to live up with the fact that PLAAF will be at least on par with them after 2010.

Just slightly off topic, PLAAF and China's aviation industry certainly welcome Jasdf introduce F22. Only some chinese internet youths may go mad about it.

Tasman

Hi Jonathon

I have always been a huge fan of the F-111 and it saddens me to see it being phased out of the RAAF inventory. However, to strike deep into enemy territory in the face of modern fighters (Su-27 etc) it now needs an escort (i.e. FA-18s) so its range is limited these days to that of its escorting fighters. The Super Hornet, on the other hand, can self escort and can also double as a buddy tanker. It can also carry a very potent strike load. The proposal from Air Power Australia to evolve the F111 still relied on the RAAF getting F-22s to establish air dominance so the 'Pigs' would be able to safely do the heavy duty bombing work. Unfortunately for F-111 lovers the evolved idea was rejected by the RAAF and the F-22 was regarded as "too specialised and too expensive" so the JSF was selected instead as a multi role aircraft.

I would love to see the kangaroo roundels on the F-22 and I am watching the Japanese request with great interest as a positive response would establish a precedent for other close allies of the USA. It would be able to establish air dominance in our region. It would maintain air superiority and would be an excellent 'day one' strike aircraft. It would be an ideal complement to either the F-35 or the FA-18F. Unfortunately I suspect that even if it was made available the RAAF would stick to its current preferred option of an all JSF force.

I do think, however, that failure of the JSF program would increase the likelihood of the RAAF requesting the F-22 as part of a mix rather than relying on an all FA-18E/F force.

Re the Japanese request I suspect that any F-22 approved for export would be somewhat downgraded compared with USAF versions.

Cheers

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Learn from the past. Prepare for the future.

tphuang

yeah, I'm not saying one side is going to dominate the other or what not. Considering that a lot of stuff plaaf has are new and the training and tactics using these new toys are probably quite lacking. But when you look at the amount of plaaf planes that are compatible with ARH missiles vs that of jasdf and also the advantage in the quality of the SRAAM, I don't see how you can argue JASDF will kill PLAAF. The main advantage I see with JASDF is the number of E-3s and E-2s that they have.

GGTharos

Superior training will do the job - but that's a bit of an unknown quantity, ain't it ...

Russian ARH missiles aren't that great - but don't get me wrong, I'm not saying they ought to be dissed.
The SRAAM quality gap is about to close hard, too - and it wasn't -that- nasty beforehand either (but I don't mean to say it was a cakewalk)

In general western avionics and weapons are qualitatively better - there's an edge there in BVR.
The numbers game now is another thing - but with F-22's deployed to Japan ... well

gamercube

IMO over the long run, the Chinese are only going to get stronger and stronger. They have the largest population and in terms of area, are among the top 3 or 4 countries. Japan has survived and prospered for so long only because of massive US economic and military support. In the long run, it will be quite irrelevant in comparison with China, just as most of the west including the US will be.

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Hasta la Victoria siempre!

Blademaster

You keep forgetting one thing! JSDAF has superior air radar coverage and control and AEW due to its E3 Sentries. That means the JSDAF can plan accordingly and funnel those PLAAF into kill zones. PLAAF don't have the means yet to counter the E3 Sentries. To use BVR missiles effectively, you need an good AWACs platform and PLAAF does not and JSDAF do.

tphuang

you obviously have missed the amount of new AEW&C and surveillence platforms that PLAAF has inducted in the past few years. I'm not saying they are as good as E-3, but they are extremely capable platforms.

xrough

If US will export F-22 to Japan other capable allies will request the same so that should be considered by US before they sell it..

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Blademaster

that's the part I don't believe nor accept. PLAAF has based their platforms on the Russian Mainstay program and it did not receive good reviews from the InAF. InAF opted to go for the Phalcon program. Due to US pressure, Israel withdrew the Phalcon program from China, thus forcing China to go to Russian Mainstay program.

You also forget that JSDAF has over 300 BVR capable planes with refueling planes. How many of the PLAAF planes are BVR capable?

Archer

I fail to see how the PLAAF will be able to match the JSDAF unless the latter allows it to happen. Do you guys seriously think that a MLU of the massive Japanese fleet with AESA and Amraam-7/8's is out of the question? I think not. Frankly, the PLAAF is not such a threat right now, that the Japanese have to take immediate cogniscance of, and with AESA/AMRAAM F-15s with upgraded E3s- they'd still be a far sight better than N001 equipped Sks and Mkks with PL-12s and with the KJ-2000.

JBG

"Hi Jonathon

I have always been a huge fan of the F-111 and it saddens me to see it being phased out of the RAAF inventory. However, to strike deep into enemy territory in the face of modern fighters (Su-27 etc) it now needs an escort (i.e. FA-18s) so its range is limited these days to that of its escorting fighters. The Super Hornet, on the other hand, can self escort and can also double as a buddy tanker. It can also carry a very potent strike load. The proposal from Air Power Australia to evolve the F111 still relied on the RAAF getting F-22s to establish air dominance so the 'Pigs' would be able to safely do the heavy duty bombing work. Unfortunately for F-111 lovers the evolved idea was rejected by the RAAF and the F-22 was regarded as "too specialised and too expensive" so the JSF was selected instead as a multi role aircraft.

I would love to see the kangaroo roundels on the F-22 and I am watching the Japanese request with great interest as a positive response would establish a precedent for other close allies of the USA. It would be able to establish air dominance in our region. It would maintain air superiority and would be an excellent 'day one' strike aircraft. It would be an ideal complement to either the F-35 or the FA-18F. Unfortunately I suspect that even if it was made available the RAAF would stick to its current preferred option of an all JSF force.

I do think, however, that failure of the JSF program would increase the likelihood of the RAAF requesting the F-22 as part of a mix rather than relying on an all FA-18E/F force.

Re the Japanese request I suspect that any F-22 approved for export would be somewhat downgraded compared with USAF versions.

Cheers"

Well put.

However I am not so sanguine about the super hornet's ability to do so much more than the current hornets.

Didn't Airpower Australia also look into fitting the F-1s with f-22 engines and digital avionics?

Jonathan