Thread: Attack Helicopters

Originally Posted by KHAN_HAN

According to TAI sources the Turks will be spending another $1.1 billion on improvements alone. That to me equates with designing a very capable heli!

Money = capability?

Originally Posted by Jimmy

Money = capability?

Most definitely; if you have the financial resources PLUS you’re a NATO member, it is not very hard to get the technology! $1.1 billion means that the R&D team will have a lot at their disposal…
The US and Partner nations spent in excess of $100 billion on the F-22 and JSF. Pakistan/China spent $500 million on the J-19. Can you even compare both platform technologies? I don’t think so!

Money talks!

Originally Posted by KHAN_HAN

Most definitely; if you have the financial resources PLUS you’re a NATO member, it is not very hard to get the technology! $1.1 billion means that the R&D team will have a lot at their disposal…
The US and Partner nations spent in excess of $100 billion on the F-22 and JSF. Pakistan/China spent $500 million on the J-19. Can you even compare both platform technologies? I don’t think so!

Money talks!

Absolute RUBISH...!!!
Money helps you acheive an aim...... without experience and know how, you have b'ollocks..!
Now please dont tell me that turkish 'know how' can be compared to the likes of BAE Systems, Lockheed, Sukoi, and so forth.!
When have the Turks had the capability to be a capable arms producer on their own accord without oudside help...???
They are not an 'inventor' of new, only a handfull of countries can be credited with that. Turkey is not one of them.
It has the means to sustain some of its Military through deals acheived with other countries such as some of its planes, which is liscensced to you to use.
can you build your own MBT.....NO
can you build your own Fighter Jet.... NO
can you build your own Nucleur Submarine.... NO
can you build your own SAM system....NO
Can you build your own Destroyer/Frigate... NO
So what can you build on your own accord, please enlighten me Here.?
Cause to me, I havent seen many main-stream Military equipment with a 'Made In Turkey' labal, other then what you are liscenced to produce.

Originally Posted by Simullacrum

Absolute RUBISH...!!!
Money helps you acheive an aim...... without experience and know how, you have b'ollocks..!
Now please dont tell me that turkish 'know how' can be compared to the likes of BAE Systems, Lockheed, Sukoi, and so forth.!
When have the Turks had the capability to be a capable arms producer on their own accord without oudside help...???
They are not an 'inventor' of new, only a handfull of countries can be credited with that. Turkey is not one of them.
It has the means to sustain some of its Military through deals acheived with other countries such as some of its planes, which is liscensced to you to use.
can you build your own MBT.....NO
can you build your own Fighter Jet.... NO
can you build your own Nucleur Submarine.... NO
can you build your own SAM system....NO
Can you build your own Destroyer/Frigate... NO
So what can you build on your own accord, please enlighten me Here.?
Cause to me, I havent seen many main-stream Military equipment with a 'Made In Turkey' labal, other then what you are liscenced to produce.

Firstly, can you please show me which country or countries produce 100% National Projects. For gods sake some of the USN ships such as the Oliver Hazard Perry class frigates use Italian made Oto Melara 76 mm guns!

can you build your own MBT.....YES, SEE MILLI-TANK PROJECT
can you build your own Fighter Jet.... YES, if we had the finances. TAI, ASELSAN, TUSAS inter alia all produce critical aircraft components including but not limited to Navigation and Targeting Pods, Electronic protection suites, Avionics etc. TAI also produces it own Turbo prop engine and R&D is continuing on a Turbo fan engine. If Turkey wanted all these could be joined under the roof of a national fighter program. Also, note that all Turkish F-16 undergoing CCIP modernization will utilise Turkish designed and produced Avionics, Electronic Protection Suites and Targeting pods. In addition to this Turkey is developing a National UCAV called the TIHA.
can you build your own Nucleur Submarine....Do we need them?
can you build your own SAM system....YES, 6 Turkish companies have bidded on current Turkish SAM tenders. ROKETSAN is one of the major companies, well know for this kind of technology. Please see, ANNOUNCEMENT RELATED TO THE COMPANIES WHO HAVE PROVIDED RESPONSE TO THE TURKISH MEDIUM ALTITUDE AIR DEFENCE MISSILE SYSTEM (T-MALADMIS) REQUEST FOR INFORMATION (RFI) (September 6th, 2007)
Can you build your own Destroyer/Frigate... YES, look at the MILGEM project and TF-2000 project!

Also, I would like to inform you that Turkish Companies such as ASELSAN and TAI export indegenous technology to the US, France and UK. Please refer to this Israeli document, which cites Turkish Technology exports: http://www.tau.ac.il/jcss/balance/Turkey.pdf
TEI has developed and exported to NASA 107, J85 Engine Ejectors. Infact this Turkish invention won the “Export Incentive Award for 2002” and General Electric Aircraft Engine’s “2002 Brian H. Rowe Engineering Award”.

Furthermore, Turkey has also develeped its own anti-anti missiles similar to the Hellfire II called the UMTAS: Roketsan’ın UMTAS ve Cirit’i « savunma ve uluslararası iliÅŸkiler
It has also developed a 78mm semi-active laser guided rocket: 2.75 inch Laser Guided Rocket / Roketsan - Military Pictures - Air Force Army Navy Missiles

Turkey currently also designs and manufactures its own Armoured Personel Carriers such as the Panter and Akrep:
Turkey also produces its own Howitzers called Panter.

For a detailed run down on what Turkey produces I draw your attention to the following Turkish Government website in English: Savunma Sanayii Müsteşarlığı - Main Page

Above all, had Turkey not been a developer of technology, it would not have been invited to join the Airbus Military A400 project. Furthermore, if Turkey could not produce technology Airbus would also not want TAI's Designining and R&D services for the Airbus project. See Dubai 2007: TAI bids to extend Airbus and F-16 contracts-11/11/2007-Flight Daily News!

TURKEY ONLY LACKS THE ABILITY TO MARKET ITS PRODUCTS DUE TO POOR IMAGE!!! BUT WAIT ANOTHER 5 YEARS AND YOU SHALL DEFINATELY SEE TURKISH PRODUCTS WORLDWIDE.

the havoc remains the best

simply for being rugged. it can operate in any terrain & adverse weather conditions .

Originally Posted by wajahat

the havoc remains the best

simply for being rugged. it can operate in any terrain & adverse weather conditions .

I like the Black Shark more. Even if it is more of a dedicated tank hunter.

Originally Posted by Simullacrum

Firstly, can you please show me which country or countries produce 100% National Projects. For gods sake some of the USN ships such as the Oliver Hazard Perry class frigates use Italian made Oto Melara 76 mm guns!
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Indeed...but still design and concept are designed inhouse, unless you going to tendor. Well the Turks also have several internal design teams. Savunma Sanayii Müsteşarlığı brings all these under one roof!The smaller countries with less buying power and capability tend to go out to tendor straight away and buy whats on the market, or come up with a requirement, and put that requirement out to tendor. You answer the question yourself: small countries lack the financial resources to do it by themselves. However, as the Turkish Finance Minister said "Turkish GDP will exceed $1.2 trillion in 5 years times". Hence, alot of things will change. Turkish scientists in institutions such as NASA etc have already started coming back to Turkey. They are being given even higher salaries than what they earned in the US and Europe!Type 45, Astsute submarines, HMS invincible, Harrier Jumpjets were designed in house by the nations defence groups.
So be it you will find a few sub systems from the outside, that can be due to politics, money, or just plain simple, that the subsystem is alot more capable then what we got. why re-invent the wheel. Same applies for the Turks! Why invent the F-16 when we get it cheaper from the US! Its better to work on projects such as the Turkish TIHA UCAV and the unmanned Land patrol vehicles such as an unmanned armed Jet Ski being developed by ASELSAN!
Only time that will happene is when something new and radical is needed, or a host country wants to keep it to itself, and not rely on a 3rd party for technology, maintanence and parts, all be it at the expesnce of cost.!
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can you build your own MBT.....YES, SEE MILLI-TANK PROJECT
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Thats just a project that has recentely started nothing tangable there.
When and if it become tangable, I very much Doubt it will compete with the greats such M1, Challengers, and Leopards. Can you please tell me when the M1, Challengers, and Leopards were designed and built? In order for their to be a project and prototype there needs to be a design! Well that design and prototype has already been completed but the Turkish Armed Forces!! Hence, to me thats tangible enough! All they have to do is commence mass production once testing is complete! The Turkish National Tank project will be a new class of MBT! It is being designed in the 21st century with Nano-technology at hand and a whole load of other technologies which wasn't available when the M1, Challengers, and Leopards were designed and built! Also, the Milli-Tank project is not the first tank project Turkey has ventured into. The Turks have a joint-venture with the Israeli's and currently produce the M60T! (Albeit, this is a modernization project, both sources state that the M60T is a "totally new tank"!!). In addition to these Turkish companies such as Otokar already have developed their own MBT's but no orders have come from the Turkish Armed Forces!-----------
can you build your own Fighter Jet.... YES, if we had the finances. TAI, ASELSAN, TUSAS inter alia all produce critical aircraft components including but not limited to Navigation and Targeting Pods, Electronic protection suites, Avionics etc. TAI also produces it own Turbo prop engine and R&D is continuing on a Turbo fan engine. If Turkey wanted all these could be joined under the roof of a national fighter program. Also, note that all Turkish F-16 undergoing CCIP modernization will utilise Turkish designed and produced Avionics, Electronic Protection Suites and Targeting pods. In addition to this Turkey is developing a National UCAV called the TIHA.
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Because you produce some parts for a jet fighter, it does not give you the right/know how to produce a fighter jet, anyhow, here you are not inventing something new, but mearly following a concept that has been done by manier countries before you. I wouldn't classify Avionics, Electronic Protection Suites, Targeting pods and Engines merely as "some parts". How many countries can produce these? A very small number! And also whats left of the plane? The fuselage and landing gear? Well, we already build a great number of fuselages for Airbus, Boeing, Lockheed Martin and a whole load of other US and European Companies! For dead cheap too! We have one of the most developed composites technology in the world. I draw your attention to the YONCA-ONUK MRTP 33 Hull. This technology is so developed that the US Coast Guard is in negotiations with the Turkish Company for the purchase of more than 40 MRTP 33's!! --------------------


can you build your own Nucleur Submarine....Do we need them?
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Why not.??? they give an unprescendent capability to a nation's militry power.
You seem to claim that Turkey is this 'great military power house' why not have them. Numbers does not make any refrence to how good a military power is, expereince and fighting is where the evidence lies to how a military can be seen in the world. Can you please show me where I claim that Turkey is this 'great military power house'!! Also, the European Union manufactures their own Fighters, Frigates etc but they don't even have nuclear subs (with the exception of France and the UK)
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can you build your own SAM system....YES, 6 Turkish companies have bidded on current Turkish SAM tenders. ROKETSAN is one of the major companies, well know for this kind of technology. Please see, ANNOUNCEMENT RELATED TO THE COMPANIES WHO HAVE PROVIDED RESPONSE TO THE TURKISH MEDIUM ALTITUDE AIR DEFENCE MISSILE SYSTEM (T-MALADMIS) REQUEST FOR INFORMATION (RFI) (September 6th, 2007)

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Again a current bid, nothing tangable. Will it be able to compete with the likes of the s300 and patriot systems...again very much doubt. I draw your attention to the Turkish procurement law! Companies which have not proven their concepts cannot bid. Hence, I hate to shatter your beliefs but the Turkish companies mentioned above have proven their offers!! In relation to how they will compare with the s300, s400 or Patriot systems. I don't know! It remains to be seen...But how effective is the Patriots when compared with the s400? Every system has its +'s and also its negatives! ------------------------

Can you build your own Destroyer/Frigate... YES, look at the MILGEM project and TF-2000 project!
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ok, this one i will give it to you, as this is more tangable...i.e. should be out on sea trial soon, if not already. and within the turkish forces in 2010.
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TURKEY ONLY LACKS THE ABILITY TO MARKET ITS PRODUCTS DUE TO POOR IMAGE!!! BUT WAIT ANOTHER 5 YEARS AND YOU SHALL DEFINATELY SEE TURKISH PRODUCTS WORLDWIDE.

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It will take Turkey more then 5 years for it to be comparable with the likes of BAE systems, Lockheed, Suhkoi, and so forth, if it will ever be able to acheive that status...!!!
We are talking about Companies that have been at the forfront of inovation for Decades they are THE inventors not the followers. Turkey will never achieve what BAE, Lockheed or Suhkoi achieved in this century, but this won't be because of capabilities...It will be because of poor marketing! I can assure you that Turkey's reliance on foreign systems will be greatly diminished in 5 years time!
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Turkey has developed so much technology in the last 5 years that even the Turkish Armed Forces is surprised! We have our own stealth technology...We are working on highly advanced radar systems similar to those used in AGEIS warships! We have developed Helmet-mouted cuing systems for use in the T-129 Attack Helli, Our F-16 CCIP, F-4 and F-5 aircraft!

Well, I'm not going to vote, but, why isn't the AH-1W on the list?

It has better High/Hot capabilities than the AH-64.

It also carries a better assortment of weapons.

So while I would prefer to have a Apache supporting me in Bosnia, I want a SeaCobra doing the dirty in the mountains of Afghanistan.

Originally Posted by KHAN_HAN

Turkey has developed so much technology in the last 5 years that even the Turkish Armed Forces is surprised!

I'm surprised too. I'm surprised at your claims. When the Turkish Armed Forces are no longer using BTRs and M113s, Pattons and Leopards, then they can claim they've got an independent MIC that can support their armed forces. Morever is it just me or does Turkey not own a single tac or strat SAM?