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Reply With QuoteMoney = capability?Originally Posted by KHAN_HAN
AH64D Apache Longbow
A129 Augusta Mangusta
Mi 28 Havoc
Kamov Ka52 Blackshark varients
Eurocopter Tigre
Rooivalk AH-2As
According to TAI sources the Turks will be spending another $1.1 billion on improvements alone. That to me equates with designing a very capable heli!
Furthermore, SSM officials have stated that after the first 20 deliveries to the Turkish Army, the fuselage will undergo "significant redeveloped" to be "more stealth capable". Considering the current developments in Turkish stealth technology we can expect something radically new.
You might also be interested to know that TAI intends to use this platform to develop an unmanned attack heli (Turna Project 2) in the future. This information can be found at Savunma Sanayii Müsteşarlığı - Ana Sayfa and TAI - Tusaş-Türk HAVACILIK VE UZAY SANAYİİ A.Ş. - TURKISH AEROSPACE INDUSTRIES INC. .
I would also recommend that you compare the performance indicators for all available attack helis in the world market. You will see that the A129 only lacks in the Radar and Weapons systems sections. The rest is either equivalent or better when compared to its competitors. Since, TAI is re-engineering the Radar system and the weapons systems...the T-129 will certainly not be subordinate to its competitors!
Above all when you join the forces of TAI/ASELSAN/IAI/and ELTA, believe me you will develop one of the best (if not the best in the world) Radar. Just "google" T129 and IAI/ELTA there is a lot of information on the venture. Add a 3rd gen ASEL-Flir 300 and you have one deadly machine!
Also, the Turks know their technology very well...they have never and will never settle for second best...especially when we are talking about aerial platforms! How many countries maintain in excess of 500 combat aircraft? Only a few handfull!
Last edited by Khan_Han; 24 Nov 07, at 10:47.
Money = capability?
Most definitely; if you have the financial resources PLUS you’re a NATO member, it is not very hard to get the technology! $1.1 billion means that the R&D team will have a lot at their disposal…Money = capability?
The US and Partner nations spent in excess of $100 billion on the F-22 and JSF. Pakistan/China spent $500 million on the J-19. Can you even compare both platform technologies? I don’t think so!
Money talks!
Absolute RUBISH...!!!
Money helps you acheive an aim...... without experience and know how, you have b'ollocks..!
Now please dont tell me that turkish 'know how' can be compared to the likes of BAE Systems, Lockheed, Sukoi, and so forth.!
When have the Turks had the capability to be a capable arms producer on their own accord without oudside help...???
They are not an 'inventor' of new, only a handfull of countries can be credited with that. Turkey is not one of them.
It has the means to sustain some of its Military through deals acheived with other countries such as some of its planes, which is liscensced to you to use.
can you build your own MBT.....NO
can you build your own Fighter Jet.... NO
can you build your own Nucleur Submarine.... NO
can you build your own SAM system....NO
Can you build your own Destroyer/Frigate... NO
So what can you build on your own accord, please enlighten me Here.?
Cause to me, I havent seen many main-stream Military equipment with a 'Made In Turkey' labal, other then what you are liscenced to produce.
^^^ but they do make the best leather in the world, soft as silk,
sorry, couldn,t resist
Last edited by omon; 25 Nov 07, at 00:16.
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!" B. Franklin
Firstly, can you please show me which country or countries produce 100% National Projects. For gods sake some of the USN ships such as the Oliver Hazard Perry class frigates use Italian made Oto Melara 76 mm guns!
can you build your own MBT.....YES, SEE MILLI-TANK PROJECT
can you build your own Fighter Jet.... YES, if we had the finances. TAI, ASELSAN, TUSAS inter alia all produce critical aircraft components including but not limited to Navigation and Targeting Pods, Electronic protection suites, Avionics etc. TAI also produces it own Turbo prop engine and R&D is continuing on a Turbo fan engine. If Turkey wanted all these could be joined under the roof of a national fighter program. Also, note that all Turkish F-16 undergoing CCIP modernization will utilise Turkish designed and produced Avionics, Electronic Protection Suites and Targeting pods. In addition to this Turkey is developing a National UCAV called the TIHA.
can you build your own Nucleur Submarine....Do we need them?
can you build your own SAM system....YES, 6 Turkish companies have bidded on current Turkish SAM tenders. ROKETSAN is one of the major companies, well know for this kind of technology. Please see, ANNOUNCEMENT RELATED TO THE COMPANIES WHO HAVE PROVIDED RESPONSE TO THE TURKISH MEDIUM ALTITUDE AIR DEFENCE MISSILE SYSTEM (T-MALADMIS) REQUEST FOR INFORMATION (RFI) (September 6th, 2007)
Can you build your own Destroyer/Frigate... YES, look at the MILGEM project and TF-2000 project!
Also, I would like to inform you that Turkish Companies such as ASELSAN and TAI export indegenous technology to the US, France and UK. Please refer to this Israeli document, which cites Turkish Technology exports: http://www.tau.ac.il/jcss/balance/Turkey.pdf
TEI has developed and exported to NASA 107, J85 Engine Ejectors. Infact this Turkish invention won the “Export Incentive Award for 2002” and General Electric Aircraft Engine’s “2002 Brian H. Rowe Engineering Award”.
Furthermore, Turkey has also develeped its own anti-anti missiles similar to the Hellfire II called the UMTAS: Roketsan’ın UMTAS ve Cirit’i « savunma ve uluslararası iliÅŸkiler
It has also developed a 78mm semi-active laser guided rocket: 2.75 inch Laser Guided Rocket / Roketsan - Military Pictures - Air Force Army Navy Missiles
Turkey currently also designs and manufactures its own Armoured Personel Carriers such as the Panter and Akrep:
Turkey also produces its own Howitzers called Panter.
For a detailed run down on what Turkey produces I draw your attention to the following Turkish Government website in English: Savunma Sanayii Müsteşarlığı - Main Page
Above all, had Turkey not been a developer of technology, it would not have been invited to join the Airbus Military A400 project. Furthermore, if Turkey could not produce technology Airbus would also not want TAI's Designining and R&D services for the Airbus project. See Dubai 2007: TAI bids to extend Airbus and F-16 contracts-11/11/2007-Flight Daily News!
TURKEY ONLY LACKS THE ABILITY TO MARKET ITS PRODUCTS DUE TO POOR IMAGE!!! BUT WAIT ANOTHER 5 YEARS AND YOU SHALL DEFINATELY SEE TURKISH PRODUCTS WORLDWIDE.
Firstly, can you please show me which country or countries produce 100% National Projects. For gods sake some of the USN ships such as the Oliver Hazard Perry class frigates use Italian made Oto Melara 76 mm guns!
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Indeed...but still design and concept are designed inhouse, unless you going to tendor.
The smaller countries with less buying power and capability tend to go out to tendor straight away and buy whats on the market, or come up with a requirement, and put that requirement out to tendor.
Type 45, Astsute submarines, HMS invincible, Harrier Jumpjets were designed in house by the nations defence groups.
So be it you will find a few sub systems from the outside, that can be due to politics, money, or just plain simple, that the subsystem is alot more capable then what we got. why re-invent the wheel.
Only time that will happene is when something new and radical is needed, or a host country wants to keep it to itself, and not rely on a 3rd party for technology, maintanence and parts, all be it at the expesnce of cost.!
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can you build your own MBT.....YES, SEE MILLI-TANK PROJECT
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Thats just a project that has recentely started nothing tangable there.
When and if it become tangable, I very much Doubt it will compete with the greats such M1, Challengers, and Leopards.
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can you build your own Fighter Jet.... YES, if we had the finances. TAI, ASELSAN, TUSAS inter alia all produce critical aircraft components including but not limited to Navigation and Targeting Pods, Electronic protection suites, Avionics etc. TAI also produces it own Turbo prop engine and R&D is continuing on a Turbo fan engine. If Turkey wanted all these could be joined under the roof of a national fighter program. Also, note that all Turkish F-16 undergoing CCIP modernization will utilise Turkish designed and produced Avionics, Electronic Protection Suites and Targeting pods. In addition to this Turkey is developing a National UCAV called the TIHA.
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Because you produce some parts for a jet fighter, it does not give you the right/know how to produce a fighter jet, anyhow, here you are not inventing something new, but mearly following a concept that has been done by manier countries before you.
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can you build your own Nucleur Submarine....Do we need them?
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Why not.??? they give an unprescendent capability to a nation's militry power.
You seem to claim that Turkey is this 'great military power house' why not have them. Numbers does not make any refrence to how good a military power is, expereince and fighting is where the evidence lies to how a military can be seen in the world.
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can you build your own SAM system....YES, 6 Turkish companies have bidded on current Turkish SAM tenders. ROKETSAN is one of the major companies, well know for this kind of technology. Please see, ANNOUNCEMENT RELATED TO THE COMPANIES WHO HAVE PROVIDED RESPONSE TO THE TURKISH MEDIUM ALTITUDE AIR DEFENCE MISSILE SYSTEM (T-MALADMIS) REQUEST FOR INFORMATION (RFI) (September 6th, 2007)
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Again a current bid, nothing tangable. Will it be able to compete with the likes of the s300 and patriot systems...again very much doubt.
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Can you build your own Destroyer/Frigate... YES, look at the MILGEM project and TF-2000 project!
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ok, this one i will give it to you, as this is more tangable...i.e. should be out on sea trial soon, if not already. and within the turkish forces in 2010.
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TURKEY ONLY LACKS THE ABILITY TO MARKET ITS PRODUCTS DUE TO POOR IMAGE!!! BUT WAIT ANOTHER 5 YEARS AND YOU SHALL DEFINATELY SEE TURKISH PRODUCTS WORLDWIDE.
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It will take Turkey more then 5 years for it to be comparable with the likes of BAE systems, Lockheed, Suhkoi, and so forth, if it will ever be able to acheive that status...!!!
We are talking about Companies that have been at the forfront of inovation for Decades they are THE inventors not the followers.
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Last edited by Simullacrum; 25 Nov 07, at 13:39.
the havoc remains the best
simply for being rugged. it can operate in any terrain & adverse weather conditions .
Who told you it's rugged??
Can it operate in any terrain and 'adverse weather condition'?
Last edited by Levsha; 25 Nov 07, at 20:39.
He's only a kid who has been impressed with photographs. He has no experience with any kind of aircraft.Who told you it's rugged??
Can it operate in any terrain and 'adverse weather condition?
Semper in excretum. Solum profunda variat.
I like the Black Shark more. Even if it is more of a dedicated tank hunter.
Well I only decided to stick my oar in on that point he made, because one hears quite often how ‘rugged’ and ‘easy to maintain’ various Soviet and Russian aircraft are in operational use and I often wonder just how much these attributes can be proven. Also, if they are so rugged and what not, to what extent other areas of the aircraft’s performance and operational capabilities have been compromised – if you build an aircraft like a tank, it will fly like a tank...He's only a kid who has been impressed with photographs. He has no experience with any kind of aircraft.
The Mi-28 is the case in point. I’m sure it could be a good aircraft after many years of operational flying and accumulated flying hours, but bearing in mind that the US army had to go through many growing pains with the AH-64 when they first brought it into service, just to bring it up to high level of serviceability, it seems to me quite naive to make bold claims about a comparable aircraft (Mi-28) of which only a grand total of only six or ten aircraft have entered service. All this despite the fact the Mi-28 project first started almost 30 years ago.
Last edited by Levsha; 25 Nov 07, at 22:01.
Turkey has developed so much technology in the last 5 years that even the Turkish Armed Forces is surprised! We have our own stealth technology...We are working on highly advanced radar systems similar to those used in AGEIS warships! We have developed Helmet-mouted cuing systems for use in the T-129 Attack Helli, Our F-16 CCIP, F-4 and F-5 aircraft!
Well, I'm not going to vote, but, why isn't the AH-1W on the list?
It has better High/Hot capabilities than the AH-64.
It also carries a better assortment of weapons.
So while I would prefer to have a Apache supporting me in Bosnia, I want a SeaCobra doing the dirty in the mountains of Afghanistan.
Its called Tourist Season. So why can't we shoot them?
I'm surprised too. I'm surprised at your claims. When the Turkish Armed Forces are no longer using BTRs and M113s, Pattons and Leopards, then they can claim they've got an independent MIC that can support their armed forces. Morever is it just me or does Turkey not own a single tac or strat SAM?
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