View Poll Results: Best Attack Helecopter

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  • AH64D Apache Longbow

    117 53.92%
  • A129 Augusta Mangusta

    9 4.15%
  • Mi 28 Havoc

    19 8.76%
  • Kamov Ka52 Blackshark varients

    46 21.20%
  • Eurocopter Tigre

    17 7.83%
  • Rooivalk AH-2As

    9 4.15%
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Thread: Attack Helicopters

  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shipwreck View Post
    Garry,

    One must also factor DRAAF (i.e. Afghan governmental forces) losses into the equation.

    Like I said earlier, the US Army figure of 269 kills is not necessarily out of line with the Soviet statistics (310 helos and planes lost from 1986 through 1988 for both the Soviet and Afghan governmental forces).
    I don't remember exactly but Afgan army had very few crafts.... I don't have total delivery figures but Afghani air force was quite modest....

    This what I found in Wiki... it is not most reliable source. If it is correct total size of AAF was 175 crafts.... even if we assume rotation it must quite a heavy loss ratio to account for difference in more than 150 aircraft reported to be downed in 1986-88.....

    The Air Force had as many as 7,000 personnel plus 5,000 foreign advisors. Large numbers of aircraft were available, but were all of older design. Strength changed rapidly as combat operations and Soviet supplies continued, but typical strength during the middle of the 1980s was:[2]

    3 x Interceptor squadrons (around 40 MiG-21)
    4 x Fighter-bomber squadrons (around 50 MiG-17)
    3 x Bomber squadrons (around 20 Il-28)
    Transports (around 15 An-26)
    Helicopters (around 30 Mi-24, Mi-8, and Mi-4)
    Unfortunatelly I don't have any statistics to insist on my view here.... lets put it this way - I don't know

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garry View Post
    This what I found in Wiki... it is not most reliable source. If it is correct total size of AAF was 175 crafts.... even if we assume rotation it must quite a heavy loss ratio to account for difference in more than 150 aircraft reported to be downed in 1986-88.....
    Garry,

    Just a couple of quick comments :

    1. DRAAF ORBAT on Wiki seems to be based on The Military Balance, 1985-86, which provides force level estimates for 1985. Not necessarily the most relevant for the period being discussed here, i.e. 1986-88.

    Cooper & Co. @ Acig give the following ORBAT for 1998 :

    DRAAF Order of Battle in 1988

    In 1988, as the Soviets were in the middle of their pull-out from Afghanistan, the DRAAF consisted of following units:

    - 232. OBVP 20 Mi-4, Mi-6, Mi-8 stationed at Kabul International

    - 321. BAP 60 Su-22M-3K, Su-22M-4K, Su-17UM-2K stationed at Baghram AB

    - 322. IAP 60 MiG-21MF/bis (four squadrons) stationed at Baghram AB, but with detachments at Shindand and several other airfields

    - 332. OBVP ? Mi-8 helicopters stationed at Jurum

    - 355. BAP 30 Il-28 and MiG-17, stationed at Shindand, but with most Il-28s at Kabul and in unrepairable condition: it seems this unit was also equipped with L-39s and acted as training outfit

    - 375. OBVP 25 Mi-24D/Mi-35V and Mi-8/17, with main base at Mazar-e Sharif

    - 377. OBVP 25 Mi-35V, Mi-8, Mi-17 stationed at Kabul International

    - 393. IAP 50 MiG-21MF/bis stationed at Mazar-e Sharif

    - 377. OBVP 25 Mi-35V, Mi-8, Mi-17, stationed at Kabul International (and other bases)

    - ? TAP with 40 An-2, Il-14, An-26/30/32 transports, stationed mainly at Kabul International.

    (Link)

    According to other sources, 36 Hinds were reportedly still in service in Afghanistan by early 1995, all of them presumably from the defunct DRAAF.


    2. ORBATs alone won't tell you much on aircraft losses.

    To (over)simplify, ORBAT = deliveries - losses,

    If you don't know about the deliveries, you won't be able to inferr much about losses.

    DRAAF received regular top-ups from the Soviets throughout the 1980s and probably until 1990-91.


    On a sidenote, the figure of 310 helos and planes lost from 1986 through 1988 for both the Soviet and Afghan governmental forces comes from Cordovez & Harrison's Out of Afghanistan, in which the authors try to rebut the Stinger's effectiveness relying on Soviet statistics.
    Last edited by Shipwreck; 17 Jun 07, at 14:55.

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shipwreck View Post
    Garry,

    Just a couple of quick comments :

    1. DRAAF ORBAT on Wiki seems to be based on The Military Balance, 1985-86, which provides force level estimates for 1985. Not necessarily the most relevant for the period being discussed here, i.e. 1986-88.

    Cooper & Co. @ Acig give the following ORBAT for 1998 :




    According to other sources, 36 Hinds were reportedly still in service in Afghanistan by early 1995, all of them presumably from the defunct DRAAF.


    2. ORBATs alone won't tell you much on aircraft losses.

    To (over)simplify, ORBAT = deliveries - losses,

    If you don't know about the deliveries, you won't be able to inferr much about losses.

    DRAAF received regular top-ups from the Soviets throughout the 1980s and probably until 1990-91.


    On a sidenote, the figure of 310 helos and planes lost from 1986 through 1988 for both the Soviet and Afghan governmental forces comes from Cordovez & Harrison's Out of Afghanistan, in which the authors try to rebut the Stinger's effectiveness relying on Soviet statistics.
    Hi Shipwreck,

    agreed, I don't have any stats for deliveries to AAF.... I also don't have figures for their losses. USSR archives have nothing on DRA air losses. Hence it is possible that stingers accounted for around +150 missing kills with DRA air forces.

  4. #79
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    Apache and Ka-50 are both great in combat
    But if you compare the looks its clear the Ka-50 is really hot

  5. #80
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    AH64D, not second thoughts...
    One should forgive one's enemies, but not before they are hanged...

  6. #81
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    Can someone here provide reliable info on the shkval sighting system?

  7. #82
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    yeah i'd have to go with the Ka-50, they have slightly better armament then the Apache, better avionics (not all, but some) and are pretty bad-ass looking, if i do say so my self.

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by starwarsgeek12 View Post
    yeah i'd have to go with the Ka-50, they have slightly better armament then the Apache, better avionics (not all, but some) and are pretty bad-ass looking, if i do say so my self.
    Welcome starwarsgeek12,why don't you head on over the the "Member Introductions" forum and post a thread so the members will know who they're talking to and while you're at it,why not fill in your user profile and tell us a little bit about yourself.This would be a wonderful thing for you to do,if not "bad-ass",if I do say so myself.And I just did .
    "Every government degenerates when trusted to the rulers of the people alone. The people themselves, therefore, are its only safe depositories." Thomas Jefferson

  9. #84
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    [QUOTE=starwarsgeek12;397902]yeah i'd have to go with the Ka-50, they have slightly better armament then the Apache,[quote]

    Not really. The gun isn't turreted, and the primary anti-armor weapons are worse in many respects.
    In some cases the Ka-50 might be able to carry much bigger rockets for bunker-busting or potentially lay mines, but that's a role typically left to artillery or fixed-wing aircraft.

    better avionics (not all, but some)
    *definitely* and *absolutely* incorrect. The Apache beats the ka-50 hands down when it comes to avionics.

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glosters UK View Post
    Ok what do you guys think is the best all round attack helecopter? I think its close between the KA50 series and the Longbow?

    A129 Augusta Mangusta
    ka 52 black shark varients
    Mi 24 Hind
    Mi 28 Havoc
    AH64D Apache Longbow
    Rooivalk AH-2As
    Tigre Eurocopter varients

    AH64D Apache Longbow is the best im glad the UK brought them there frickin deadly and highly advanced tec wise

  11. #86
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    I've always thought that the world's most brilliant scientists are Russian, but as with most everything they produce, there are always too many cut corners, too many compromises, and too many rough edges. The U.S. has always taken a more conservative approach, but is so much more careful in making sure everything works in a real world scenario.

    The Apache is battle tested like no other. It's armament package is second to none. Sure, it's performance numbers may lag other helos, but the overall package is unbeatable.

    I think this contest is a no-brainer. The AH-64 Longbow wins hands down.

  12. #87
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    Gah. Slay the foul necromancer. Who keeps ressurecting all the dead ''vs'' or ''best'' threads? We're going to have an undead infestation at this rate.

  13. #88
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    The Turkish Built T-129 will be one of the world's most advanced attack hellis ever built, once complete. It will have the advantages of stealth coating technology, a highly advanced Radar (built by a joint-venture between Turkish Aircraft Industries (TAI) and Israeli Aircraft Industries (IAI)). This radar will be similar to the AN/APG-78 Longbow dome which is installed over the main rotor of the AH-64D Apache. It will house a millimeter-wave Fire Control Radar (FCR) target acquisition system, thus allowing the detection and (arcing) missile engagement of targets even when the helicopter itself is concealed by an obstacle such as a tree or buildings. Furthermore, it will have the advantages of being a platform designed in the new millenium.

  14. #89
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    It will have the advantages of stealth coating technology
    Source please, as this is not mentioned in any of the press releases.

    Furthermore, it will have the advantages of being a platform designed in the new millenium
    The A-129 was designed in late 70s, and made its maiden flight in 1983. Although it has been upgraded recently the the A-129 CBT standard, the original design was not created after 2002. By the time T-129 flies, it will be 2012-2013.

    Moreover, the design has not been combat proven, has not been successful in international sales, and even the Italian Army has purchased only 60 of them since 1986. I am doubtful about the eventual platform that will come out of this program.

  15. #90
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    ATAK turns A129 decidedly Turkish

    By Paolo Valpolini
    November 11, 2007
    Regulations

    Although Turkey announced its selection of the AgustaWestland A129 for its tactical reconnaissance and attack helicopter program in March, it took until September 7 to finalize a contract whereby the Anglo-Italian rotorcraft maker will participate in Turkey’s ATAK program in partnership with prime contractor Tusas Aerospace Industries (TAI). Other Turkish companies, such as Aselsan, will provide parts and subsystems for the helicopter to be called the T129.

    The $2.7 billion ATAK program calls for a total of 51 helicopters–one prototype and 50 production aircraft. According to sources at AgustaWestland’s Finmeccanica parent group, its share totals almost $1.7 billion. An option for a further 41 T129s is part of the contract.

    The T129 design is significantly different from that of the A129. While the key moving parts remain mostly similar, as does the fuselage, the mission computer, avionics suite and all the systems integration will be developed and produced by Turkish companies in accord with Turkish army requirements. The agreement between AgustaWestland and the Turkish government includes transfer of the T129 production line from Italy to Turkey, with TAI to be the airframer for this variant of the helicopter. AgustaWestland plans to continue providing key components and subassemblies.

    The development of part of the T129 avionics package started in 2004 with a $30 million research-and-development program focusing on the helicopter’s mission computer and associated software. Aselsan, TüBiTak-MAM and TAI formed a consortium known as AsMaTa to take responsibility for these items. However, the original development period of 18 months extended to 40 months; flights on an AH-1S Cobra test bed aircraft should commence next August.

    The avionics package includes the following:

    * two multifunction displays per cockpit,
    * two Aselsan LN-100G INS/GPS sensors,
    * a Symetrics Industries IDM-501 data modem,
    * Ozisik cockpit management display system,
    * an AN/APX-117 identify-friend-or-foe unit manufactured under BAE Systems license by Aselsan, and
    * MXF-484 UH/VHF radio sets produced under Rockwell Collins license by the same company.

    The T129 will be powered by two LHTEC CTS800-4N turboshafts, each providing 1,362 shp at sea level. The integration process for the T800 engines started years ago at AgustaWestland for its A129 International model. To fully exploit the output power, AgustaWestland has designed modifications for the transmission. The CTS800-4Ns should ensure good performance in hot-and-high conditions even at full takeoff weight, which for the T129 will be higher than the current Italian army A129 G.15 version.

    The T129 will retain the Oto Melara TM-197B chin turret armed with an M197 20 mm Gatling gun, which Turkish pilots rated highly for accuracy during tests on Italian A129s. Turkey also will likely arm the helicopter with Rafael NTD extended-range missiles (which the Italian army also chose as an upgrade).

    Laser-guided 2.75 rockets developed by Roketsan will certainly be part of the weapons suite. Moreover, the T129 will also be capable of carrying a pair of two-rail launchers for air-to-air Stinger missiles. AgustaWestland integrated the Stinger missile for the Italian A129s, the latest versions now equipped to carry the weapons system.

    Aselsan is developing a helmet-mounted cueing system that will allow the pilot and gunner to slave the gun to their ocular aiming sight. It will also install its Aselflir 300-T, which is based on an eight- to 12-micrometer forward-looking infrared radar.
    Aselsan also is developing a millimeter wave radar which mounts on the mast over the rotor to provide SAR/ISAR capabilities allowing target identification up to 20 miles. Aselsan plans to also provide the entire electronic warfare self-protection suite, including radar, missile and laser warning receivers, chaff- and flare-dispersing systems, RF jammer, IR countermeasure system, as well as the central processing and management units.

    According to Turkish sources, the country’s army seems to have dropped the option of leasing some Italian Army A129s to fill the gap until the new helicopters can be delivered in 2013. TAI will be responsible for offering the T129 on the export market, with the exception of Italy and the UK, Jordan, Malaysia and Pakistan, since these are already among AgustaWestland’s potential customers.

    ATAK turns A129 decidedly Turkish : AINonline

    I think, without making a complete new design you can't just simply add Stealth ability.
    Last edited by J`ve; 23 Nov 07, at 22:30.

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