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Reply With QuoteOk well which chopper does have the best flight chacteristics? Which is faster? more manurevable? more agile? what about air to air with other helo's? whats the russian equivalent to stinger? is it as good?Originally Posted by GGTharos
AH64D Apache Longbow
A129 Augusta Mangusta
Mi 28 Havoc
Kamov Ka52 Blackshark varients
Eurocopter Tigre
Rooivalk AH-2As
Correct, service ceiling is a direct indicator of lifting power, and it will basically tell you how a heli will perform in mountains.
In this respect, the Ka-50 beats every other design out there. And that's the only thing is beats other helis in. Everything else about it right now is worse.
As for Mi-28 having 'far better characteristics than AH-64' ... which characteristics would those be? Its missiles are worse, and in the rest it's no different (it uses radio-beam-riders, BTW, which means it must be exposed for the duration of the shot, while the AH-64/A/'s LOAL capability allows it to pop up, find target, pop down, fire, pop up and designate for the last 3-5 sec of flight).
Ok well which chopper does have the best flight chacteristics? Which is faster? more manurevable? more agile? what about air to air with other helo's? whats the russian equivalent to stinger? is it as good?
IGLA, I don't know if it's good or not but it works.
Ugly helos, probably MiL, it the ungliest looking chopper ever taking off the ground (somebody will need dry pants after seing it on the battlefiels).
Maneuverable, KA (twin rotor gives it better maneuverability and control)
Weapons, AH.
Armour, probably MiL, but possible AH (nobody have shot in MiL with a stinger yet).
Helo-helo, have to test them vs each other.
Наша жизнь как пианино: белая клавиша, черная клавиша и крышка
Are you expecting helicopter to helicopter battles (like aircraft to aircraft battles were in WW1) any time soon? Helos are used for many tasks such as Recce, Anti-Tank, communications, Casevac, troop lift, moving supplies and the like. Expecting Aces in the rotary wing world is a little far fetched!
Semper in excretum. Solum profunda variat.
I hardly expect it! simply asking if two choppers of this caliber were to meet i presume instead of running away they would clash... and if so we have an air to air chopper battle which is what i queried!
I understand that you are not gonna have huge ariel combat duels with essentially armored tank killing helecopters as that is not what they are designed to do.
Some longbows do have wing tip double stingers which i would imagine are for...??
If they were, they'd be duking it out witht heir anti-tank missiles.
Hello guys. I'm shure it won't be easy to pit these birds against each other directly but we'll do it in theory by comparing the theoretic capeableaties.
To this end:
The only three of these that I know of which have seen any combat is Apache, Cobra and Hind24.
The Hind was easy meat for the stinger and had no defencive equipment on board. It's old age avionics and poor targeting equipment ensures that it can not be mentioned with the other modern helo's. That said it is the only one that has a troop carrying compartment. It's also very big and combersome. By the way, there was a very capable modernisation done by some South African componies.
The Cobra is a lighty when it comes to the others and lacks proper range and carrying capasity. Altough, again, the "z" did have some nice improvements done to it and I'm sure that it can cope some, but you really nead a big force to make them count.
The Apache in it's "A&B" form is old when compared with the Tiger and Rooivalk. The "C&D" has seen some good improvements made, though. The TADS and avionics was improved and surely is good. It's been done with middle to late 80's early 90's tech though. The data bus is not up to standard and the TADS is still second genaration. The "D" has the radar though, and that radar puts it in a league of it's own when it comes to detecting targets. It's got to be remembered that using the radar will also make it posible for the enamy to see the helo more easily. That radar is also very expensive. Again, that makes it good against primative enamy but if these have good anti-air systems....? The one thing we can be sertain about is that you nead a big army to support this baby. It's been designed with Europe in mind and outside of that it will spend more time on the ground.
The Tiger is a nother baby though. Its modern, fast and agile. It's got a lot going for it but why two versions? Because it's to expensive to do all in one and the airframe is to small. There's very little range in those tanks and she's been build for Europe's wet and cold temps with lots of support by a army of ground crew close by.
We are left with the Rooivalk. Politics aside, this is one hell of a helo. It's got the third gen TADS, a binoculor HMD&S system, Armour plated seats and engine covers, selfsealing fuel tanks with the longest range of any attack helo on the market today. The capeableaty to carry close to 2000kg of ordanance including A-A missiles. The Makopa misile for the anti-tank role or precition attack has a 10km range. Well in eccess of the hellfire. This missile has a 12km ballistic range! When guided it will get to 10 like nothing. A IR detector is in development and this will have a detection range in eccess of 12km. There is talk of a mmw-detector for Makopa but that is far off. This helo can do anything that all the others can but combines range, leathality and unparralelled maintainableaty. This last factor has been proven in the last three years it's been in opperation in the SAAF.
There is still the Mangoosta from Italy but, it's small and does not have the power for hot and high conitions, no range to talk of and can not carry a really usefull load.
From the above, I rest my case. Leafe politics out of it and you will see the Rooivalk in more colours soon!
God bo alles, my gesin daarna en my volk kort op hulle hakke, dan eers, ek!!!
Developed in South Africa from the Puma in much the same way as the Hind was developed from the Hip, the Rooivalk is a capable machine that has reached maturity. It is big enough to tote a large weapons load along with decent fuel tankage. My main misgivings concern its size and lack of radar.
Semper in excretum. Solum profunda variat.
I agree in large part, however is it likely to be proved in combat in the coming years??
Do you know any buyers?
It will be interesting to see it prove its self
Hi, Gloster UK
Well, thats where the politics comes in. SA does not have the political waight that the US and European countries have.
For the moment, things are looking good for the Turcish requirement. Then there is the outstanding order by Malaysie, but, I do not think that will materialise. Look, this is a small country with a new government and this government has a very much third world mentality. Things are looking better now that this government has come to the party in showing there support, at last, for the defence industry in SA. There attitude is a changing. We might see some government to government agreements coming to the four from now on. The Turcish contract can be crucial....
We'll see what happens.
God bo alles, my gesin daarna en my volk kort op hulle hakke, dan eers, ek!!!
hi mate,
Maybe request to re join Britsh as part of our Empire... im sure that would help!!
Hello Glyn
Just to fill you in a bit. The original Rooivalk, in the eighties, was based on the Puma drive train. Though, the design has grown to such an extend that you'll be far stretched to find anything resembling the Puma in it today. The know-how build up in the dev. of the Rooivalk has also lead to the dicontinuation of the puma family in the South African Air Force (SAAF). This force now uses the Oryx type, which is pritty mutch the same as the super Puma, but not the same, if you now what I meen.
The gearbox had to be improved to handle the increased power and higher spec of a combat helo. A lot of effort has gone into the improvement of vibration in this choppy. So mutch so that many a test pilot has commented on how smooth she flies. The rotor blades have been totaly redesigned and is made of a combination of coposite fibres and titanium in the leeding edges. These blades are made in the plant at "Atlas", not bought from outside, like I've read in a nother thread. Then the engines, off coarse, are not the same as in the Puma, but are substancial improvements on those. Thease are mainly made in the SA-plant under lisense from Turbomecca, in France. The rotorhead is based on the Puma-head, but you're welcome to have a look and you'll see the differance from the old Puma rotorhead. Hope you will have the opportunity to see the Rooivalk up close.
So, all that is left of the Puma is the basic lay-out. Not mutch though....as most helo's from Europe has that. The US helo's differ a lot though, don't they?
God bo alles, my gesin daarna en my volk kort op hulle hakke, dan eers, ek!!!
I suppose it depends on what one wants to do with it. One of the things about the Mil-24 that really hasn't been seen in Western helicopters since S-67 Blackhawk was that it could carry troops as well. But Western helicopters seperate that function into attack birds and troop, though armed, birds.
On the good side, one can probably build a more efficient killing machine. Thinner in profile, able to dedicate more of the power plant to carrying weapons, probably the upper hand on maneveaurability.
On the bad side, one has to build a larger infrastructure to have at least two different machines in the air. Maybe a lot of the parts are the same, but there will probably be a difference somewhere. The forward base will probably need to be larger since it is supporting two, at least, machines.
And if the attack bird needs to be big in the first place, why not? One of my 'fantasies/mind exercises' in the 90's was a 21st century Mil-24 type helicopter. Two man attack crew, two huge engines, 7.62 minigun, 40 mm main guns, TOW's on the 'wings', room in the fuselage for additional fuel/weapons/troops, duct pusher fan, duct tail rotor. (I was using a lot of Mil-24/S-67/AH-54 in its 'construction') That was the Mk I and as fantasies go, it progressed into the Mk II where a Gausian gun system altered the 40 mm to the main arnament, line of sight telemetry kinetic energy weapons, making the TOW obsolete and not needed.
In fantasy, it had its own impossibility to power the Gausian gun system, but the Mk II was often brought to the table as a think tank weapon. Ie, if we had to, how do we make it work? One of the suggestions was to put a third engine on it and use that to power a generator to fire the Gauss guns.
If it ends up being big, anyhow, why not find a way to put troops on it as well?
As with any fantasy, there may be more than just the bird. One of the often reconsidered exercises was a raid on a mountain stronghold. Bring in the Mk II's, troop birds, two teams, one to accomplish the main mission, one to handle enemy reinforcements (or take the landing field for an orbiting backup C-130, the 'exercise' went thru many considerations). One of the side considerations was that if some of the troop birds bought it, the Mk II's could provide a backup evac capability.
Again, what does one want to do? (to answer the question, which is best)
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("You will go in, destroy everything that moves, until a flag of surrender goes up. Our troops, in helicopters orbiting off the coast, will then move in and take control of the island."--John Bradford Horn explaining the mission to a brainwashed Hawke, (w,stte), AirWolf "The Horn of Plenty")
Hi glosters
Yai, you not far of with that comment of your's.....
But, you'll have to watch out, it wont be long before your old island is inhabited by foreners and there's no space for the original inhabitants any more. The results of some of your gov's liberal policies!!! In the meantime you might be right though. I'll tell you what, If you had our weather and climate I would most probibly have been there already!!
Oh, I've re-read your comment and now see what you ment by joining. Yes, in that case you might be correct. Then again, it seems as though some of the componies over there have seen the potential in buying into "Denel" and has already bought themselfs some good little buys! Like our old "OMC" Olifant Manufacturing Compony. It has some good prospects with there RG31's & RG33's.
God bo alles, my gesin daarna en my volk kort op hulle hakke, dan eers, ek!!!
1. Large triple-lobe air/exhaust fitted to the engine jetpipes to reduce the IR signature became obligatory in 1983.
2. Two pairs of ASO-2V chaff/flare dispensers were strapped on beneath the tailboom. These were replaced in 1987 by triple ASO-2V on the fuselage sides immediately aft of the wings, angled forward to obtain a wider coverage.
3. From 1984, an L-166V-1E Ispanka (SOEP-V1A Lipa) active IRCM jammer was fitted aft of the main rotor head on the Mi-24V Hind E.
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