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Reply With QuoteNice article Albany. thanks for the link
AH64D Apache Longbow
A129 Augusta Mangusta
Mi 28 Havoc
Kamov Ka52 Blackshark varients
Eurocopter Tigre
Rooivalk AH-2As
The Kosovo air crashes were due more to pilot error due to lack of traininig. 11 ATK HELO REGT worked on that in time for OIF. Unfortunately they ignored their doctrine on 23 MAR 03 and got shot up. They learned the lessons well and have refined their doctrine.Originally Posted by LetsTalk
The U.S. Army Professional Writing Collection
Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is to know to not use it in a fruit salad.
Nice article Albany. thanks for the link
The T-129 (note, not the A129) will be either equivalent to if not better than the Apache. After all, it is using components from the defunct Boeing/Sikorsky RAH-66 Comanche program.
Agusta and TAI is not a partnership I would dismiss very quickly....
Dhalfcast, when you compare the two, I must say that the AH-64 specifications IMO, at least on paper look better.
AH-64 Apache - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Agusta A129 Mangusta - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
TODAY'S ZAMAN
US refuses engine production in Turkey for attack choppers
The US administration has turned down an Italian request for the transfer of technology for US T800 engines to pave the way for their production in Turkey and to be mounted on Turkish attack helicopters intended to be co-produced with Italian Agusta Westland.
Unlike an earlier statement made by Undersecretary Murad Bayar of the Undersecretariat for the Defense Industry (SSM) to daily Hürriyet that the Italians had ensured that an export license for production of T800 engines in Turkey at Tusas Engine Industries Inc. (TEI) facilities, local sources close to the project told Today's Zaman that the US has only agreed to extend technical assistance support for the engines, not their production in Turkey.
The engines to be mounted on Turkey’s attack helicopter play an important role in the project since it would increase the efficiency of the helicopters in line with the request made by the Turkish Land Forces Command.
The US refused to sign a manufacturing license agreement (MLA) with Italy for the LH Tech T800 engines but agreed to sign a technical assistance agreement (TAA) that envisages technical support to be given for the engines to be fitted on Turkish attack helicopters, said the same sources.
The SSM and Italian manufacturer Agusta Westland signed an agreement in September of last year for the co-production of 51 A129 attack and tactical reconnaissance helicopters at the Tusaş Aerospace Industries (TAI) facilities in Ankara. The project, worth around $2.7 billion, is codenamed T-129.
The project involves local production of software source codes and hardware as well as the integration of high-technology avionics on the helicopters. But due to delays in both export license approval by the US, as well as the Italian government’s late approval of its company transferring the necessary technology for the production of helicopters in Turkey, the project has not yet begun.
The SSM, believing that the latest technical hurdles have been overcome, plans to make the project effective in the first half of April, soon after the planned meeting of the SSM Executive Committee on April 9, during which the procurement of some arms projects will be decided.
Plans for the acquisition of attack helicopters date back more than 10 years, to when Turkey first decided to buy them as an urgent requirement. The Turkish Armed Forces (TSK), allegedly unhappy about the selection of the Agusta Westland model over concerns it would not meet its operational requirements, has urgently sought the transfer of around 10 used Cobras from the US to meet its needs during the increased fight with the outlawed Kurdistan Workers’ Party (PKK) terrorists.
But US has so far turned down the Turkish offer, due to the unavailability of Cobras, and instead offered armed Black Hawk or possibly Apache attack helicopters.
In the meantime, the Land Forces Command refused an Italian offer for the transfer of its own attack helicopters as an interim measure, despite the fact that the Italian helicopters were selected for co-production in Turkey and were intended to be used by the Land Forces Command.
There has been increased speculation in Ankara that Turkey’s attack helicopter plans with Italy may fail, mainly because the Turkish configuration requests on the helicopters are hard to meet.
Turkey to opt for US Sikorsky multipurpose helicopters
The SSM Executive Committee, which includes Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan, Chief of General Staff Gen. Yaşar Büyükanıt and Defense Minister Vecdi Gönül, cancelled a multipurpose helicopter acquisition project at its Dec. 5, 2007, meeting.
Instead it decided Turkey would conduct talks with the US Sikorsky and Italian Agusta Westland for the procurement of over 80 helicopters for the TSK, worth around $1.5 billion.
However, Today’s Zaman has learned that the SSM Executive Committee is expected to cancel its 2000 decision, under which a tender was opened for the helicopters’ acquisition. Instead Turkey may now buy US Sikorsky helicopters as a sole source.
Meanwhile, during its April 9 meeting the SSM Executive Committee may decide on the winner of another long-awaited acquisition, the Göktürk electro-optical satellite project -- worth around $230 million.
Turkey has decided to eliminate Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI) from the Göktürk project. A selection is expected to be made from among Italian Telespazio, Germany’s OHB-System and Britain’s EADS Astrium.
Due to heavy French involvement in the Italian offer, the TSK is allegedly inclined not to favor Telespazio, while reportedly preferring German OHB-System, though local industrialists state that Germany does not have a proven satellite system.
Britain’s EADS Astrium, meanwhile, has reportedly increased its level of technology transfer offer to Turkey, while minimizing French content in the project to make its system more attractive.
Turkey has reduced its ties with France following the latter’s adoption of a resolution condemning Ottoman Turks for alleged responsibility in a so-called genocide of Armenians during World War I.
31.03.2008
LALE SARIİBRAHİMOĞLU ANKARA
TODAY'S ZAMAN
The T-129 will use the T800 next generation turboshaft engine for rotary wing applications, which is produced by the Light Helicopter Turbine Engine Company (LHTEC) . A joint venture between Rolls-Royce and Honeywell, the company was originally a partnership between the Allison Engine Company and AlliedSignal. In 1995 Rolls-Royce acquired Allison Allison Engine Company, and in 1999 AlliedSignal merged with Honeywell and adopted its name.
The engine was primarily developed for the U.S. Army's RAH-66 Comanche armed reconnaissance helicopter, in the T800-LHT-802 version. With the cancellation of this 650+ aircraft project the T800 will have to rely on its secondary applications which includes incorporation into the T-129.
The T-129 will also incorporate a Joint helmet-mounted cueing system developed by Turkish company ASELSAN. The system will be similar to the one being designed by ASELSAN for the Joint Strike Figther (JSF).
The T-129 will also use a next generation mast mounted surveillance and targeting radar with SAR and ISAR capability. Similar to the Apahce Longbow's. However, the T-129 Radar will have a better detection distance than the one utilised in the Longbow. Furthermore, the T-129 Radar is being developed by a joint-venture between Isreali IAI/ELTA and ASELSAN.
Hence, I believe that the T-129 will be 0.5 generation better than the older developments.
This is just speculation....I don't think the US will make another mistake in upsetting Ankara. Not when they are bogged down in Iraq, and rely on Turkish Airspace, logistics etc everyday. Ankara and Agusta would on the other hand simply view this move as an attempt to hinder its helicopter program. This will only start tit-for-tat commercial blocks. We cannot also discount the fact that the US Coast Guard wants to obtain Yonca-Onuks composites technology in the development of the Fast Response Cutter (FRC) of the Integrated Deep Water Program. It is said that the Turkish designed and manufactured MRTP 33 is the best in its class world-wide. If this deal falls then Turkey may also cancel the transfer of the special composites technology. http://www.americanturkishcouncil.or...ar%20(SSM).pdf
Furthermore, and despite the above, this would only mean that Ankara would not be given the technology required to produce the Comanche Engine.
But this does not mean that it cannot purchase it. After all, both Italy and Turkey already have the authorisation to purchase such engine.
The only problem it seems will be that, Turkey may cancel the agreement, because under the current Turkish procurement law, everything must be either produced on Turkish soil with technology transfer or be co-produced with another country. If the US does not approve of the technology transfer then Turkey may opt out of the deal totally.
That is not really 100% true. Turkish Armed Forces, and other branches of the security establishment can and do buy directly from weapons systems producers in case of "emergency requirements". You may check the purchase process of Mi-17s for Gendermarie use as the simplest example.
Yeh...that is also true....but Turkey is already seeking used Cobra Attack helis from the US Inventory as an emergency stop gap solution until the T-129 enters into service....I believe the US offered Armed Blackhawks and Apahces....in response to this request, but Turkey rejected this option.
If worse comes to worse, Turkey will cancel the project alltogether with the Italians and opt for the Russian Ka-55 Erdogan. (In my opinion, that is).
The Turks want something indegenous....and hence they will look elsewhere for co-operation.
Furthermore, Turkey has had a very bad experience with the Russian Mi-17s . They were meant to be modernized, but problems with Russia left the aircraft abandoned, in a dismantled state on Russian territory. I think the current Turkish Government initiated negotiations for the return of these choppers.
Last edited by dhalfcast; 31 Mar 08, at 10:49.
I thought I inform you that Ankara got approval from the USA, the same evening it initially had rejected the technology transfer to Turkey. In fact, the approval includes more than what Turkey had sought:
Turkey gains US approval to build engines for T129 attack helicopter
By Tolga Ozbek
The US government has agreed to the use of Rolls-Royce/Honeywell LHTEC CTS800s to power Turkey's AgustaWestland T129 attack helicopters, with Murat Bayar, undersecretary of the European nation's under-secretariat for defence industries, confirming that the engines will be manufactured by Turkish Aerospace Industries.
Ankara opted to replace the baseline AW129's original R-R Gem 1004 engines due to concerns over their performance under hot and high operating conditions in south-eastern Turkey, and integration of the CTS800 is expected to boost the T129's power output by 20%. Turkey's attack helicopter programme is budgeted at $2.7 billion for 51 aircraft, with an option to acquire a further 41.
TAI will become the only company to produce the AW129/T129, with any further airframe or spares orders placed by the Italian army to be met by the company. It will also offer the model for possible export sale to additional nations. Turkey's Aselsan will provide the T129's electronics, radar and fire-control equipment.
DATE:31/03/08 Time: 12:22
SOURCE:Flight International
Source: Turkey gains US approval to build engines for T129 attack helicopter
[QUOTE=dhalfcast;476060]I thought I inform you that Ankara got approval from the USA, the same evening it initially had rejected the technology transfer to Turkey. In fact, the approval includes more than what Turkey had sought: [quote]
That did not take long! Thanks for the link
Very intersting info here!
Thanks
Regards
Pioneer
'My Personal View' only!!!!
Although I do not know the cost differences between the Tiger and the A-129 International, that was offered to the Australian Army!
(Does anybody know? For I would be interested)
I have always felt that the A-129I would have been the better choice.
Then again I have always felt that the South African Rooivalk AH-2As would have been better suited to Australian climate and vast distances!
Didnt the Malaysians chose the Rooivalk at some stage but did not follow through because of the economic situation?
But the fact that must work against the Rooivalk, is that only the South African have put it into service.
Pity!
Regards
Pioneer
This was published in the September 1987 issue of Armed Forces Journal :
Introduction over a year ago of British Blowpipes and United States Stingers changed the Afghan battlefield by making air defenses even more dangerous than operational attrition.
Published figures from Western sources typically have put Kabul government and Soviet aircraft losses at 1.2 to 1.5 aircraft per day (438 to 547 annually) since late 1986. Such numbers are optimistic. They could be true only if mujahideen missile crews are achieving kill probabilities close to U.S. test results of 77 percent.
A more realistic estimate assumes a kill probability of 33 percent. With an effective inventory of about 800 missiles last year, this translates into the destruction of about 270 aircraft per year, or almost .8 per day. Combined with operational attrition the figure reaches a total of 390 to 510 aircraft lost annually from all causes. These numbers coincide nicely with published figures which seem to exaggerate the missile's effectiveness by erroneously assuming that all aircraft losses are due to the missiles.
The huge increase in losses due to the new missiles is straining even the enormous Soviet air fleet. The losses come at the same time that Soviet military aircraft production is declining from 1,500 fighters and helicopters in 1983 to 1,150 in 1986, according to Department of Defense estimates.
The economic loss is already consequential. Destruction of 270 additional aircraft a year represents a loss of about $2.2 billion.
Having confronted the Stinger and Blowpipe in combat, Soviet aviation is learning valuable lessons. To reduce the vulnerability of their aircraft, the Soviets have already implemented an initial modification program. For example, they've added louvers to helicopter engine exhaust ducts to reduce their infrared signature and screens to keep missiles out. All close air support aircraft in Afghanistan employ suppressive countermeasures, as do transports.
Figures given by Maj. William McManaway (XO, Directorate of Evaluation, Standardization, Concepts, Studies and Doctrine; US Army Air Defense Artillery School) in 1990 :
Stinger Scorecard in Afghanistan:
Nb of Missiles Fired : 340
Nb of Kills : 269
of which :
~90% crossing
~10% incoming
Last edited by Shipwreck; 26 Jun 08, at 23:36.
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