GGTharos

I can think of many scenarios where a radar switches modes. But 'mode' is nothing more than a set of parameters which may include azimuth and bar scan settings, and radar PRF settings as well as antenna search speed.

Of course, there's HoJ modes, too.


In any case, the 'ATK' submode is basically what we call STT - and is largely a joke to use it as a meaningful reference in this situation.

Basically - Raptor's somewhere in front of you, you do an auto-acq search (all radars have such modes typically) lock onto it in no time, and proceed from there.

HOWEVER. AFAIK, most aircraft do not have the combined heater/gun 'Dogfight' mode like the F-16 does. Regardless, switching from gun to missiles is a matter of flicking a switch - it's quick, painless, and takes 0.25sec on average for you to do that

Despite this, the unfortunate truth is that a VC of 200kts and rising combined with the fact that seeker lock needs to be verified and the time it takes for the missile to come off the rail (which is significant, on the order of half second to a second) you're looking at losing some 1 to 1.5 sec of the time allotted, at which point you're under 500' distance which equals a MISS. Missiles have arming -and- guidance restrictions at such short ranges. THAT is why you have the gun.

Now, we could presume that the hornet could have fired its missile earlier - but in this exercise missiles were not a factor.

How can you tell? The hornet blew ALL its speed away to point its nose at the raptor for a snapshot with guns. In other words, a last hurrah.

Further, there's no flares in the images - and I'd say that lack of IRCM typically implies no missile simulation either. This was a gunzo fight.

Jimmy

A laser has to be very accurately aimed at a target. An IR field of view doesnt. If the HMS/JHMCS had a rifle scope on it, and THAT was the laser viewfinder, you might be onto something.

highsea

I was thinking it was a more generic term, like what we usually call ACM mode.

Maximus- as GGTharos said, virtually all radars make automatic mode changes. PRF's may change based on closure rates of a target, targets are prioritized and given more scan time based on preset parameters, etc.

In whatever the manufacturer happens to call the "AUTO" mode, this all happens transparently.

APG-66 will automatically switch to ARG mode when a ground attack weapon is selected. IIRC, earlier versions did something like what I mentioned previously. I don't have the TACMAN, so I can't be specific, and I wouldn't do it on this forum anyway.

AESA pretty much does it all at the same time...

The Raptor takes it even further, with EMCON state increasing incrementally as the target gets closer and the threat level increases. All transparent to the pilot, but designed to maintain maximum stealth while gathering as much information as possible, right up to the point where weapons release is imminent. By the time Raptor is at the highest EMCON state and at the lowest stealth level, the pilot has a full EOB and is ready to shoot.

I have a correction to make. I said to MR I just want to say that radars also have "boresight modes", which is just a pencil beam aiming straight ahead. So the term applies to both radars and IR Missile Targeting functions.

Just thought I should clarify that.

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MarquezRazor

Okay right.

Anyway I enquired,apparently the "attack" mode(atk for short) is infact common to some Russian radars.It appears similar to the STT.But the radar will go into the Attack submode only if the missile parameters are met.And the submode is a common one ,meaning you can go to that submode from a number of other BVR and WVR modes.

Anyway in a close manouevring combat scenario there is a mode(I am talking about a particular radar) where you just need to place the opponent in your HUD and the radar will automatically lock on,and if the launching parameter of the missile you have selected are met it will go to the Attack submode with also an audible cue(beep) and then you can launch the missile.

I am not saying that the Hornet could have shot the Raptor in that scenorio.Just what could happen if you were using missile instead of the gun and not that it could switch from gun to missile.In anycase first the launch parameters of the missile have to be met.

GGTharos

Russian radars have a numebr of Auto-ACQ modes, just like US ones. ATK submode is basically the equivalent of STT - it's locked on target, it's cueing missiles or guns, and it'll do something if you pull the trigger. That's all.

If you were using a missile in this scenario you'd have missed most likely - like I said ... too close. But, there's things about these missiles we don't know. There's a certain flyout distance to keep the launcher safe - after that, even if the fuze doesn't arm, a kinetic hit can easily do a lot of damage. But again - out of parameters shots are low Pk, regardless of what you're using.

So - the hornet (or any other plane in this position) -maybe- have damaged or taken out the F-22 in this instance. But it is also very likely that the raptor would take no hits and comes around and clobber the now flailing opponent.
This is an attack of desperation

MarquezRazor

That might be a good possibility,but that also depends a LOT on the particular missile as well.So.

GGTharos

That's not easy to answer because it's a 'yes and no' question.

Yes, it's possible to create a missile that'll do it.
No, I doubt there's a missile that would guide under -this- specific set of circumstances. -This distance- ... what you see in these shots -this- is the method of keeping someone with TVC missiles from shooting them at you: You get in close. Now, the Raptor's in the Hornet's HUD, which is a mistake, and he's paying for it by sitting in the pipper for 2-3 frames. But that's the risk you take - you enter the gun range to stay inside missile Rmin.

Especially, for example, if all you have is a gun, or the other guy has high off bore missiles and you don't. You make his life a lot harder (usually, not always) by forcing a gun fight.

hello

The Raptor has the speed and power advantage;it chooses the fight, not the Hornet. It can just supercruise away, and comeback with its missiles, or fly up and come around on the Hornet, which can't follow. As long as the Raptor has missiles and fuel, it can choose to stay out of guns range.

chankya

The only Russian tanks to be really hit with western equipment were "monkey models" handled by countries with deficient training and poor overall infrastructure.

While a lot of those qualities are hard to quantify and therefore to prove, it's just as hard to disprove.

One purpose of monkey models was supposed to have been disinformation. If you truly believe that the Abrams is leagues ahead of the competition then it's just possible they actually succeeded.

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chankya

I don't stand anywhere where you think I do. I fully appreciate the contributions of the servicemen of United states and other allied nations. What annoys me is the presumption that you won the war. The US entered (ground combat) in 1943. That was 4 years after the soldiers of a good many other countries had fought, bled and died fighting the germans. Oh and the Battle of Kursk was almost over before Operation Husky (allied ground forces in Europe) started.

Let me be clear. Too many good men and women fought and died on all sides in that war. I do not arrogate to myself the liberty to belittle anyone's contribution from the safety and comfort of my living room.

gunnut

So you will never test your best equipment in battles until it's too late?

Other people are constantly testing their stuff in battle while you buid yours on theory and data. That's all fine and well but theory and data can go only so far. If theory and data is all we use to determine how good something is, why bother with fighting or even playing any sports. Just line up the stat sheets and be done with it.

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Jimmy

^^^ The US rarely sells its top-o-the line systems too.

An even better example of this is the MiG-25. NATO and the West were practically shitting themselves over this super-fighter, and I can only imagine the jaws dropping after Belenko landed in Japan.

Soviet tanks are the reason the A-10 was designed, built, and sent to Europe. We knew we probably didnt have enough armor if Moscow decided they wanted the rest of Germany/Earth.

gunnut

However, we have thoroughly trounced 3rd rate Russian equipment in Iraq's possession, several times. I think that's what he meant.

Jimmy

Iraq is the best example of it, yeah. But export models of pretty much all Russian/Soviet equipment was often neutered, for the same reason we do it. The Russian equipment wasnt so far from par for most countries using FSU gear. In fact prior to the Gulf War, Iraq's military was held in fairly high regard, despite getting trounced by Iran.

Libya, Egypt, SE Asia...none of these guys were getting Russia's top equipment.

Deltacamelately

Why the debate? The Raptor is the world's sole 5th Gen Machine...technologically no fighter as of now is closeby. Now if the bulk of Americans share the view that what we are witnessing is an invinsible machine...Nothing Doing !!! Just wait and watch for some remote action between Raptors and other legacy fighters to unfold.

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