highsea

ROFL. Tell that to the Serbs too...

SRB? You still around? Tell chankya about "nothing on the ground being hit", will ya?

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chankya

Okay. mini-wave in celebration of the air war. NATO no wait.. the USAF rules all. Thank you America, Good Night!

Edit: Let's drop it. I don't want to destroy a topic. I'll concede the F-22 is a very good aircraft but not the be all and end all.

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Jimmy

No its not. You think you can pickle off a missile in ONE FRAME? That's laughable. For one thing, the system has not acquired the Raptor. That's a problem. For another, it'll take almost half a second to actually input the fire command to the jet...pulling a trigger, whatever. In that half a second, the Raptor has moved over 500ft assuming he's moving around Mach 1...the F-22 pilot wants to engage at higher speeds, but this is a quick'n'dirty. Lets say the system takes only a half-second to actually acquire the Raptor...he's moved over 1000 feet LATERALLY across the Hornet's field of view. At the range we're seeing, he's out of the HUD already. No shot. That Hornet does not have the energy to maneuver hard enough to keep him in view...even if he did its doubtful he could've even rolled into the turn fast enough, since he's moving the OPPOSITE direction already.

So lets see...you think he can reverse his turn, get a lock, and fire off a missile in less than about 2 seconds?

highsea

Where did you come up with this? I've never heard of such a thing on APG-73 or APG-79 (or any other American-made fighter radars).

The only place I can find anything on "atk submode" is on SU-27 flightsim.

bfng3569

nice to see were u stand in all of this......

GGTharos

Sounds like it. Someone who plays a bit too much Flanker, perhaps?

The FCS -could- theoretically have a missile ready - but this a complete non-argument. No IRCM is being used, so the engagement is a non-engagement.

Furthermore, the raptor is sitting inside the missile's Rmin. This is -precicely- what the gun is for - and the screens show a snapshot, which - due to settling issues on the sight - may have completely missed.

In addition, -if- a missile was fired at this range, it might not even guide. At the very least it won't arm as there's an acceleration per time requirement (this is one of the meanings of Rmin).

Again. At the closure displayed on the HUD, the entire distance will be eaten up within 3 sec. This guy basically 1sec to do anything at all with - had he fired a missile, it'd have been thrown out of the turn.

highsea

Yep. No AIM-9 targeting symbology is even present (no BORE/SLAVE mode, no Target Range Circle, no Missile Aiming Reticle), though the display of the slant range indicates the radar was locked on. (that detail escaped me earlier )

I got a little info on the sortie:

The setup was a defensive BFM ride with a demo-configured F/A-18F off the perch at 3000' and 300 kts. The bubble was 1000'.

The symbology (I know you already mentioned some of this, but I will repeat):

In the first frame, the shooter is at 179 kts, .36 mach, ~25-26 degrees nose-down with 20.3 alpha, pulling 1.6 G. Slant range is 1000 ft. Altitude is 15,180 ft. Shooter has 200 kts of closure.

The second frame, shooter is at 182 kts, .37 mach, ~28-29 degrees nose down with 19.5 alpha, pulling 1.9 G. Slant range is 900 ft, altitude is 15,090 ft. He has 210 kts of closure.

The frames are probably consecutive- the seconds on the clock reads :08 in both frames.

The 7.6 under the mach display is the max G pulled on the flight.

The IN LAR symbol shows he is within the gun envelope, the "X" over the GUN indicates it is on SAFE.

There is no BATR displayed, I don't know why.

It is a low percentage gun shot, since it is so far out of plane. The first round will take .33 seconds to cover the 900 ft, and is probably an overshoot. The shooter will pass behind the Raptor in approx. 2.3 seconds.

So basically, the shooter pulled up and over to put the nose on the Raptor, which is why he is down to 180 kts even though he is in a dive and accelerating. If he continues to pull lead, they will collide.

The F/A-18 driver did a very good job to even get in front and get the nose on the Raptor, it has to be said. But it was a big risk to take to get one frame of a Raptor in his sights, and not very smart flying.

The 210VC @ 900' is a gross violation of the TR's.

Had it been a real fight, even if the shot was good, the F/A-18 driver stood a good chance of fragging himself when he flew through the debris. Had he missed, the Raptor has several options to kill the F/A-18- he can go vertical and make a J-turn and come right down on the F/A-18's ass.

The BFM setup was a bone tossed to the F/A-18 guys from Oceana for playing BVR with the Raptors and getting killed every time.

Defcon 6

We already knew the Raptor was bad ass. this just makes it look even better to me.

^_^

MarquezRazor

LOL..nope.I was talkin about Russian radars.AFAIK even N011M has got such a submode in the close combat modes,in addition to Vertical, Helmet, boresight, slewable etc.

Maximus

Well, was thinking about it. Here is the thought:

AH-64 Apache uses Laser guided missiles to fire on Ground Targets. Several Fighter Attack Aircraft such as the F-16, F-18 also use Laser guided munitions to attack ground targets.

What I was thinking is that Laser guidance has primarily been used in Ground attack munitions only. I can't think of any A2A weapon being deployed with laser guidance.

The point is laser guidance can be used to attack fighter aircraft such as the Raptor in WVR engagements. Since JHMCS is already available, the only thing the pilot needs to do, is lock up the laser on the airborne missile through his HMS and fire the missile. Even though this is strictly WVR, but still would give other aircrafts some hope of surviving in a WVR engagement against a stealthier aircraft, which cannot be locked at even when within sight.

Of course for all this to happen, the aircraft needs to survive BVR against the Raptor.

I've heard this point that how hard it can be against the Raptor in the BVR engagement as well. Now the point is, Raptor uses the AIM120, which is an ARH missile. Now AFAIK, AIM120 after being launched will go Active after sometime, which means it will switch on it's own Radar to track the target. Now with the RWRs available on an aircraft any decent fighter aircraft like the F-16 would be able detect this "Active Missile". And if it can be detected, then there are always chances that it can be evaded.

Any comments?

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highsea

You don't seem to be distinguishing betweem radar modes and FCS modes.

"Helmet" and "Boresight" are FCS modes used to cue an IR missile's seeker- it has nothing to do with the radar. Presumably there would be a "Slave" mode as well for the R-73, which would then allow the missile to be cued by the radar (at least that's how AIM-9 works).

Radar modes are things like Area Search, Track While Scan, Single Target Track, Ground Mapping, Ground Moving Target Indicator, etc. Submodes might be normal, one or two levels of doppler beam sharpening, track through notch, etc.

What the pilot sees on his HUD is dependent on which weapons he has selected. The FCS is not going to automatically switch from guns to missiles just because a target appears in the HUD.

The radar may switch modes automatically under certain scenarios, based on the range to the target. But it's sure as hell not going to be jumping around when the target is at a slant range of 1000'.

Under normal conditions, (modern) radar modes will be controlled by soft keys on the CRT. Automatic switching would be in cases where (for example) the target was within 12,000', the radar might switch from TWS to STT.

Maximus

Highsea, Isn't the STT mode available both in TWS & RWS modes? STT, AFAIK means Single Target Tracking, and is used to hard lock on a target. You can go to STT even in RWS. In STT the Radar cannot track another target. Used primarily in case of SARH missile launches. In case of ARH missiles,when you can fire on multiple targets, you don't need STT. Right?

highsea

Maximus- I was speaking in very generic terms, just to give an example of when a radar might switch modes automatically without manual intervention.

Each one works a little different.

gunnut

The loss rate to extreme condition for the Abrams is the same as any other tank in the world. It's just that Abrams are nearly invulnerable to enemy fire. Unlike Russian tanks...

It was statistically safer for a US soldier deployed in Operation Desert Storm than during peace time. Does that mean US soldiers have horrible living conditions at home?

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Maximus

Hmm.. I can't think of any scenario in which a Radar would switch modes automatically. This is because all the modes are very different. TWS, RWS etc. Heck, the Radar doesn't even change the scan altitude automatically, if the locked target is moving above/below the scan area.

Can you give a very specific example of a Radar(say F-16's or F-18's) changing modes automatically? I really can't think of one right now..