Kolchuga ESM system vs F 22 APG 77

urmomma158 · 02-10-2007, 16:58 PM

Well there's been alot of hype about this Kolchuga system and how it can detect stelth aircraft byt heir emissions but im larely skeptical it can detect an LPI radar like the APG 77 at it's maximum ranges. 25km seems more likely for me because I doubt the computing/processing power on the Kolchuga is that great.

Quote:

As a rule, there is a very long and sometimes impassable distance between an abstract formulation of some technical feasibility and its “embodiment” in metal. This distance was covered by the Special Radio Device Design Bureau public holding, the Topaz holding, the Donetsk National Technical University, the Ukrspetsexport state company, and the Investment and Technologies Company. It took them eight years (1993 - 2000) to conduct research, develop algorithms, test solutions on experimental specimens, and launch serial production. The new product dramatically changed the balance in the constant competition between offensive and defensive means. The relatively cheap Ukrainian Kolchuga radar station, which is able to detect and identify practically all known active radio devices mounted on ground, airborne, or marine objects, actually cancels out all those billions of dollars spent on stealth-based armaments.

- A complex consisting of three Kolchuga radar stations makes it possible to spot ground and surface targets and trace their movement within a radius of 600 km (air targets at the 10 km altitude - up to 800 km), which makes an effective early warning air defense system;

- The Kolchuga station is equipped with five meter-, decimeter-, and centimeter-range aerials, which provide for high radio sensitivity within a 110dB/W - 155 dB/W swath, depending on the frequency;

- A parallel 36-channel preset receiver makes it possible to spot instantly, identify, and classify signals from any source with unlimited input density within the entire frequency range from 130MHz to 18,000MHz;

- All radio objects are spotted and identified automatically, a powerful computer digitizing and identifying targets by comparing their parameters with the available databank, results being shown on a field display;

- Special inhibitory sorters omit up to 24 interfering signals, and tracking sorters make it possible to synchronously sort out and track signals from 32 targets;

- All normal operations require only one operator (two other operators work on a shift basis for 24-hour d

Offshore Software Development and Software Outsourcing alliance in Ukraine, Eastern Europe

However the F 22 CIP and APG 77 is quite a sick combo each CIP operates at 10.5 billion Flops and many of the slots aren't even populated and there's room for a third CIP not to mention it's a COTS design so it can be upgraded often.

Quote:

At the heart of the Raptors integrated avionics package is the Common Integrated Processor, which has been specially built with both the present and future in mind. Roughly the size of a large toaster, the CIP handles and processes all sensor and pre-programmed mission data. Data processing functions are handled by one of seven different processing modules, and each of the CIPs (there are two aboard each Raptor) can accommodate up to 66 individual modules. What's more, by design, the CIPs are under utilized. Each processing module is built at only 70 percent capacity (to allow for a 30 percent increase in module performance without changing the dimensions of the processor module), so there are currently 19 unused slots in CIP #1 and 22 unused slots in CIP#2 which provides for additional growth in information management. Lastly, there is room in the F/A-22 for yet a third CIP box, which would increase the information processing potential of the Raptor by 200 percent.

Gear Update: The F/A-22 Raptor

Quote:

Each module is limited by design to only 75 percent of its capability, so the F-22 has 30 percent growth capability with no change to the existing equipment. Currently, 19 of 66 slots in CIP 1 and 22 of 66 slots in CIP 2 are not populated and are available for growth. There is space, power and cooling provisions in the aircraft for a third CIP, so the requirement for a 200 percent avionics growth capability in the F-22 can be easily met. There is coordinated plan for technology growth that will help keep the CIP at state-of-the-art levels. As electronics continue to get smaller and more powerful, it is conceivable that there could be 300 percent increase in avionics capability.

The exponential explosion of computer technology in recent years has allowed the F-22 team to radically alter every aspect of the program from detailed design through manufacturing, communication, and into the cockpit itself. An example of the effect of the advances in computer technology is a comparison between the computers used in the Lunar Module and those used in the F-22. The Lunar Module's computers operated at 100,000 operations per second and had 37 kilobytes of memory. Today, the F-22's Common Integrated Processor main mission computers operate at 10.5 billion instructions per second and have 300 megabytes of memory. These numbers represent 100,000 times the computing speed and 8,000 times the memory of the Apollo moon lander.

F-22 Avionics

http://www.aviationnow.com/avnow/news/channel_defense_story.jsp?view=story&id=news/aw010807p1.xml
The Raptor has done well in northern edge and has demonstrated the ability to kill AWACS.

Raytheon processors

http://www.raytheon.com/products/ste...borne_proc.pdf

In order to be sure I would like to know how powerful the Kolchuga's processors are,software cpabiliities etc if anyone knows them thanks.

GGTharos · 02-10-2007, 17:49 PM

I don't see why Kolchuga couldn't detect it ... there are means to detect an LPI radar. It might be harder in a satuated environment, but, the more dangerous thing is that you might be detecting the AWACS Raptor while a pair vector in on you nose cold from a different direction ... either way, Kolchuga might tell you the guy's there, but then what? You can't pick him up on radar, your weapons can't pick him up on -their- radar ...

highsea · 02-10-2007, 23:42 PM

Urmomma-

BOO!

Are you scared now?

DO YOU HAVE ANY CONCEPT?

Christ almighty.....

highsea · 02-10-2007, 23:47 PM

Urmomma- my apologies. The extreme over-simplistic nature of the discussions on this forum has left me exasperated.

My bad.

s_qwert63 · 02-10-2007, 23:53 PM

One thing I never got is this whole stealth concept.
The hype about it being undetectable, I mean, there must be a way to detect something travelling through the sky at 700km/h. Sooner or later stealth will be a thing of the past.

Jimmy · 02-11-2007, 00:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by s_qwert63

One thing I never got is this whole stealth concept.
The hype about it being undetectable, I mean, there must be a way to detect something travelling through the sky at 700km/h. Sooner or later stealth will be a thing of the past.

Of course it will. Just like planes where you could walk on the wings to put gas into the tanks, or open cockpit fighters, or tail gunners for bombers, or battleships, or lever-action rifles...

highsea · 02-11-2007, 00:37 AM

Aaargh. Why do people think the world is frozen in place?

I have a 1902 M-1894 30-30 that is a thing of beauty, but it's not an M-16. Once it was, but that was then....

What kind of IDIOT thinks today's tech is the end-all, be-all?

squert- when you have solved this problem, then you can ask what's next...

s_qwert63 · 02-11-2007, 00:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by highsea

squert- when you have solved this problem, then you can ask what's next...

I recall the Serbs already solved it using videotracking when they brought down that F117.

You might have misunderstood my post, I was trying to say, that a lot of people now think that stealth is undetectable and all that bla bla...
However, stealth was already outdated when it was first conceived. I mean the B-2 bomber might be a technological marvel, but it is damn slow, so even a rusty Mig-21 will bring it down so long as it gets a visual, machine gun it the old school way. So far as I know there is no chaff against a 30mm round.

GGTharos · 02-11-2007, 01:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by s_qwert63

I recall the Serbs already solved it using videotracking when they brought down that F117.

That was a very specific, one-off incident.

Quote:

I mean the B-2 bomber might be a technological marvel, but it is damn slow, so even a rusty Mig-21 will bring it down so long as it gets a visual, machine gun it the old school way. So far as I know there is no chaff against a 30mm round.

How about 'no visual'? The B-2 can go just below the mach, and unless that rusty old MiG-21 is taking off somewhere nearby, and /knows/ where to look ('cause these things fly at night usually), it won't be machine-gunning anything put air the old school way. Stealth isn't about being undectable - it's about being undeteclable at a *useful range*.

highsea · 02-11-2007, 01:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by s_qwert63

I recall the Serbs already solved it using videotracking when they brought down that F117.

Ground the Fleet!

Quote:

Originally Posted by s_qwert63

You might have misunderstood my post, I was trying to say, that a lot of people now think that stealth is undetectable and all that bla bla...
However, stealth was already outdated when it was first conceived. I mean the B-2 bomber might be a technological marvel, but it is damn slow, so even a rusty Mig-21 will bring it down so long as it gets a visual, machine gun it the old school way. So far as I know there is no chaff against a 30mm round.

Yeah, okey dokey, pokey.

The only misunderstanding is on your end.

News flash- the interim (so-called regional) bomber will probably be subsonic as well. 'Magine that....

s_qwert63 · 02-11-2007, 01:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GGTharos

That was a very specific, one-off incident.

Which nevertheless cast doubt on the multi billion (if not trillion) dollar investments the US Govt. has put into stealth technology.

Quote:

How about 'no visual'? The B-2 can go just below the mach, and unless that rusty old MiG-21 is taking off somewhere nearby, and /knows/ where to look ('cause these things fly at night usually), it won't be machine-gunning anything put air the old school way. Stealth isn't about being undectable - it's about being undeteclable at a *useful range*.

Yes, I heard that although a stealth bomber is 'stealth', it still avoids radar sites like the plague.

GGTharos · 02-11-2007, 01:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by s_qwert63

Which nevertheless cast doubt on the multi billion (if not trillion) dollar investments the US Govt. has put into stealth technology.

Cast doubt, sure - especially in the eyes of those who don't know how it all works. And? The technology is still completely valid.

Quote:

Yes, I heard that although a stealth bomber is 'stealth', it still avoids radar sites like the plague.

Last I heard, that was the stealth bomber's job

highsea · 02-11-2007, 01:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by s_qwert63

Which nevertheless cast doubt on the multi billion (if not trillion) dollar investments the US Govt. has put into stealth technology.

Yes, I heard that although a stealth bomber is 'stealth', it still avoids radar sites like the plague.

See post #4....

urmomma158 · 02-11-2007, 12:30 PM

I was just wondering the likely range the kolchuga could detect the APG 77?

Jimmy · 02-11-2007, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by s_qwert63

Yes, I heard that although a stealth bomber is 'stealth', it still avoids radar sites like the plague.

Not quite true. Routes are planned to minimize the possibility of detection. There are always "one-off' situations possible, so why take unnecesary chances?

Have you ever seen an F-22 on radar? I havent...and I've tried.

02-10-2007, 23:42 PM	#3 (permalink)
highsea *Defense Professional* Join Date: 12-10-04 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 3,536	Urmomma- BOO! Are you scared now? DO YOU HAVE ANY CONCEPT? Christ almighty..... __________________ My baby called me up. She said- Why don't you ever take me out? Pick me up in your brand new car....You shake the short change from the old fruit jar...

02-11-2007, 00:37 AM	#7 (permalink)
highsea *Defense Professional* Join Date: 12-10-04 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 3,536	Aaargh. Why do people think the world is frozen in place? I have a 1902 M-1894 30-30 that is a thing of beauty, but it's not an M-16. Once it was, but that was then.... What kind of IDIOT thinks today's tech is the end-all, be-all? squert- when you have solved this problem, then you can ask what's next... Last edited by highsea : 02-11-2007 at 00:40 AM.

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02-10-2007, 17:49 PM	#2 (permalink)
GGTharos Contributor Join Date: 10-06-06 Posts: 357	I don't see why Kolchuga couldn't detect it ... there are means to detect an LPI radar. It might be harder in a satuated environment, but, the more dangerous thing is that you might be detecting the AWACS Raptor while a pair vector in on you nose cold from a different direction ... either way, Kolchuga might tell you the guy's there, but then what? You can't pick him up on radar, your weapons can't pick him up on -their- radar ...

02-10-2007, 23:47 PM	#4 (permalink)
highsea *Defense Professional* Join Date: 12-10-04 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 3,536	Urmomma- my apologies. The extreme over-simplistic nature of the discussions on this forum has left me exasperated. My bad.

02-10-2007, 23:53 PM	#5 (permalink)
s_qwert63 Banished *Senior Contributor* Join Date: 08-29-03 Location: everywhere Posts: 790 Country:	One thing I never got is this whole stealth concept. The hype about it being undetectable, I mean, there must be a way to detect something travelling through the sky at 700km/h. Sooner or later stealth will be a thing of the past.

02-11-2007, 12:30 PM	#14 (permalink)
urmomma158 the real plastic *Senior Contributor* Join Date: 03-05-06 Location: NJ Turnpike Posts: 938 Country:	I was just wondering the likely range the kolchuga could detect the APG 77?

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