Vishnu

High Sea ... if you are indeed linked to the changing security equation between India and the US ... and you can confirm that neither Boeing or Lockheed Martin showed Indian officials the true capabilities of the jets they were flown on ... then please, please identify yourself !! Its a HUGE issue ... and one which may make our security/defence establishment rather wary of engaging the US beyond an extent.

Incidentally ... when I was flown on the Hornet at Farnborough this year ... there was a US State Department sanction which was granted to me. I assume a similar sanction was provided on this occasion to each and every Indian citizen who flew the F-18 or the F-16.

Thanks
Vishnu

joey2

LCS, Aegis, P8mpa, p3c, f16, f18, homeland security stuffs, pac 3, aerostats , bell 407 (out of tender now) and what not are on offer :briggin:

if indeed someone asks me to choose between F16 block 60 and F18 i would choose heavily customized F16.........

but lets see what happens big ticket purchases

I would be most happy top see some more 100 Ge F404IN20 engines being ordered other than any of the above, better still move the production line of GE engine, now that reliance is talking of acquiring Ge plastics who knows

but vishnu indeed a lifetime experience...what makes me feel weird more is whom i see everyday on the tv , i'm speaking with him.

If i ever became journalist i'll knock your door with probably a few thousand articles

hammer

Welcome to WAB, Vishnu !

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Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie!'...till you can find a rock. ;)

highsea

Vishnu, I have no connection these days with India, Boeing, or Lockmart. I left aerospace several years ago. I only maintain unofficial contact with a few people that I have worked with in the past, and only comment on such things as are in public domain. I consider myself free to speculate, and people are welcome to take it however they please.

Since I don't even know what all India has been shown, I can't comment on it, nor would I if I was in the position to, since all such deals are under strict non-disclosure terms. I have no desire to get myself in trouble in any case.

I am quite certain that your military decision makers have been shown things that you have not seen. I do know what the standard practices are for incentive rides, so unless you received something outside the normal procedures, it is as I said. The same applies to your Hornet ride. I hate to say this, but even if they tell you otherwise, unless you watched the boot-up and wrote down the build number, I won't believe you.

For Boeing or Lockheed (or any other Defense Contractor) to disclose classified information to a prospective buyer requires Pentagon and State Dept. approval. Such special dispensation was given last year when the PAC-3 was offered, and India received a classified briefing. As you are no doubt aware, the agreement signed last year permits certain transfers of technologies, demonstrations, etc. related to that facet of India's defense.

Everything is compartmentalized.

Until India actually issues a tender for the MRCA deal, I can't imagine that full capabilities have been shown. It would be extremely odd. What I would say has been shown is flight envelope, maintenance requirements, etc. Basically the performance and cost specs. Things like ECM/ECCM, weapons, full radar capabilities, etc. are dependent on the tender and official review.

Right now, India is viewed as a "tire-kicker", and while Boeing and Lockmart et al are courting India heavily, they simply are not permitted to disclose highly sensitive information this early. (Nor would India tell the US the full capabilities of the MKI if we asked).

The way these deals go is like this: The customer first defines a set of requirements in the RFP. This is reviewed, and based on which components and technologies are considered exportable, a configuration is devised that most closely meets the customer's needs without violating export restrictions or Gov't. Policies (such as introducing an offensive capability into a region that is not already available through other sources). The manufacturers will then make their proposals based on that configuration, offsets are factored in, etc.

In India's case, everything happens at a snail's pace, so it's even more difficult. We know that once a decision is made, it is still 3 or 4 years before the contracts are even signed. Then local facilities have to be built, etc. By the time India's first frame takes off, things will have evolved beyond the current spec. For example, GaN MMIC's will have replaced GaAs ones, the next generation of AMRAAM will be in service, and so on.

And smart money is on the MiG-35 anyway...

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My baby called me up. She said- Why don't you ever take me out? Pick me up in your brand new car....You shake the short change from the old fruit jar...

Maximus

METEOR is specific to the Eurofighter Typhoon. I wonder if it has been fitted on a Soviet made aircraft till now. Although, that would hardly be a problem in case India decides to buy the Meteor.

I would bet on the R-77. Last time I heard Pakistan getting the Slammers(the B Version) from the US. Considering that Pakistan has the F-16s it has in it inventory, the R-77 would be a better buy for India since a Flanker armed with ARH R-77 has a slightly(read slightly) bigger WEZ than the F-16 armed with a Slammer(B version). With AIM120C this WEZ could shrink further by about 3nm.

Highsea could correct me if I am wrong.

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highsea

^^^Hard to put much credence in the article, could be talking about the meteor or the mythical R-77PD, or the even more mythical AIM-120VFDR, lol.

Meteor will also fly on F-35.

Maximus

Now, Is that a new version, declassified accidently by you?

MarquezRazor

That could be the Izdeliye 180

and Vishnu welcome..

Maximus

Alright, time for a babe..



And another one... taking it off...



And finally dressed to kill..

MarquezRazor

Nice pictures Maximus,but shouldnt they be better put in a appropriate thread...unless they are related to the topic somehow which I cant understand?

highsea

Not really new, not even really sure of the status of the program. The VFDR was the Raytheon FRAAM competitor to the Meteor for the BVRAAM effort to give the Typhoon a longer spear. VFDR= Variable Flow Ducted Rocket. IOW, a Ramjet powered AIM-120 variant.

FRAAM

Aerojet won the contract for the development of the propulsion portion in late 2004. (They also build the motors for the Coyote SSST)

Raytheon simultaneously offerred the ERAAM as an 80% solution, which is now known as AIM-120D. That one we're pretty sure about, expecting IOC mid-2009. The VFDR is still a great big "maybe" (meaning probably never), especially with the equivalent Meteor available.

Nice pics. (tha cats and the pu$$y)

tphuang

when you say foreign users do not get the same tapes that the US runs, you mean like less detailed, inferior quality ones, right?

subba

Just a little off the topic, but if i was anywhere within a mile of the Indian strategic decision making initiative, i would'nt consider US equipment for many reasons.

1. Unreliability (not necessarily of the equipment)

2. The inability of Americans (in general) to understand India's cultural, security, political and economic initiatives.

3. Highhandedness of officials in the past.

4. Massive arms sales to our neighbours for use against us.

Maybe Highsea Sir is right or wrong, but that is precisely the uncertainlity that is generated vis a vis the US. That uncertainity generated is enough to ground policy inititatives in favor of India buying US equipment. Possibly to the deterrent of both US and India as of today. But it does in many ways reflect tremendous trust deficit still to be covered up. And till that trust deficit is covered wholly, massive arms deals will not be forthcoming or desirable.

I tried to analyse why this is so, for 2 countries that have altogether different histories yet are converging to identical value systems and global interests. We've seen dozens of Teresita Schiffers, Albrights, in the state department come in and go. We've seen for a decade before 911, the amount of times we've warned the US on Islamic extremeism emanating from our West. We've fought and warded them off bravely for a decade before the US came around. The State dept played the Pakistani propaganda game all through the decade.

IMHO there is a larger trust deficit, lack of knowledge in the US SD and policy making apparatus than there is in the Indian one. When Micheal Witzels run schools of anti-hindu propaganda posing as mainstream academic scholars, what do you think the average Joe in US learns about us? Cows, curry, caste, sati, poverty. The exceptional exotic becomes the truth. So you have Indiana Jones and Harrison Fords who tell normal Joes in the US what India is. Who exploits the truth deficit? Exactly the enemy the US wants our support as a strategic partner. That is exactly where the State Dept South Asia heads, policy makers come from. Teresita Schaffer did a 1 year course on South Asia history to head the US SD policy think tank on SA affairs in the mid 90's.

You just have to read Nixon and Kissingers rants on Indira and India 1971, shocking revelation at the very least. How did they arrive at such biased notions. Certainly the decisions taken under that bias were tremendously detrimental to Indian security. The roots of that bias lay squarely on the distorted US educational bias against India rather than in geo-political strategy. Everything that Nixon and Kissinger did vis a vis 1971 was geo-politically a short term, medium term, and long term disaster.

One thing good Bush in earnestness tried to do was the civilian nuclear deal with India. The 2005 agreement between Bush and MMS was in very good faith. One could actually look at Bush and make out a genuine desire for rapproachment. Yet by the time it came to the US congress what did the Congress do? They inserted clauses in the Hyde act that makes it unpalatable, that show as i mention..highhandedness, trust deficit, unreliabitlity.

They reinforced in the Hyde Act each and every one of the very causes that cause this chasm.


Ironically it's on the p2p level that the maximum progress and initiatives have been taken. They must continue to grow. That will keep bridging the trust deficit. Maybe it will help. Certainly an economically growing India will help bridge that too. But as the economy grows it becomes riskier to put ones eggs into a basket where there is highhandedness expected, trust deficits, uncertainilty..etc.

This is just my 2p worth as i see it. I don't know how the Indian policy establishment is judging things.

kams

Mig-35 is till a paper product IMHO. Most of the subsytems are yet to be to proven. AESA radar shown by Phaztron in AI07 is too raw and even the advertized range of 130 kms leaves lot to be desired. It's going to take a long time before Phaztron improves the range, irons out all the bugs (heck software bugs in F/A18E are still being taken care of). Add to all this the unreliability of Mig corp. Keepinng the Mig-29s and Mig-21 Bis flying has been a challenge for IAF. In fact a squadron leader was awarded Vayu Sena medal for improving the availibility of Mig-21 Bis to 70%. Engines are notorious (despite Kilmovs claims). It's waste of time and bandwidth to even talk about ECM (ok now they are getting Italian system), Mig-35 are no where near their Western counter parts. Weapons - Out dated. All future derivatives of missiles are yet to see production.

Apart from all this is it really advisable to have totally (well almost) equipment of Russian Origin in IAF (Mig, 35, Su30 MKI, 5th Gen)?

US has most wide variety of Air-Mud weapons, especially stand-off versions.

Indo-US relationship is a political exercise which will take time to mature.

Making the Nuclear deal an acid test of our relationship is stupid and immature. One has to go beyond Nuclear deals, arms purchase.

There are no friends or allies between nations, only common interests. Luckily both Indian and American administrations have realized this and have decided to forge ahead.

Indra

Welcome to WAB,Vishnu!

Indra