Thread: Pentagon halts sale of F-14 parts

Originally Posted by highsea

They don't have the jigs and tooling necessary to overhaul the wing boxes. You need an assembly jig. They could maybe re-skin the wings. Maybe. It's not a simple process on a VG wing.

IIRC there was talk that they were taking help from the Chinese to reverse engineer components..perhaps the Chinese could help out with the above..

Those birds got a lot of use in the Iran-Iraq war, and the center barrels and wing boxes are fatigued. If any of these are really still flying, they are severely G-limited.

Ok..

The AWG-9's are DEAD without replacement TWT's. Every single one of them. If they're working at all, it's on French or Russian tubes.

I think it could be French firms, is there a sanction on Iran right now?
Also, they seem to have a hangup viz. Russia and their AF and per ACIG have trust issues, so the French seem to be the candidates. The PRC, has just started fielding airborne FCRs ..dont think they can manage on demand TWTs for which most of the specs will have to be reverse engineered..

I recall in a game (or was it an old intel report?) where the Iranian F-14's were used as AWACS birds.

Now, I don't know much about that aircraft's radar, of whether it would still work or not, what it would take to make it work. That wasn't my area.

But if someone was doing something of a reverse Tu-128 situation, with a decent SAM net, where instead of ground directing the aircraft to the intercept, the aircraft is directing ground where to point the missiles (or worse) ......... then that's one flak storm I'd rather avoid.

Basic point is, if the bird can fly at all, consider all aspects of what it can be used for, not just what you would use it for.
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Originally Posted by Archer

Acc. to ACIG, the US tracked some 20 odd F-14s flying, and Tom Cooper states that the rest were stored, but would have now been brought online. Manpower wouldnt be the Iranians worry- spares would, the key thing- which I guess nobody apart from them knows- is how many of the spares have they been able to reverse engineer.

Twenty flyable F-14s is possible, but not likely. To get those twenty aircraft flyable, they would have to be cannibalizing parts from the remaining aircraft. Manpower is exactly Iran's problem. They have had no exposure to training on the F-14 in twenty-seven years. No factory classes. No access to our service difficulty reports. No access to the NADEP or even Millington for type specific training. My man hours per flight hour is based on a force of 200 or so trained squadron level people and an equal number of trained intermediate level maintenance people supported by tech reps from Northrup-Grumman, Pratt and a host of other vendors. That just does not exist in Iran.

Against both, wouldnt the AWG-9, Phoenix combo have the edge, provided the Iranians have modified them sufficiently, so as to not have them totally vulnerable to US ECM.

Iran got the AIM-54A. A fine missile for shooting down bombers and cruise missiles. Not fighters. Assuming the AWG-9 still works, shooting AIM-54As at F-18s is almost, but not quite, as effective as spitting at them. Given the superiority of the APG-73, the Iranian F-14s are in a world of hurt. Like I said before, if they meet some F-18s, death is going to be quick. If they should stumble into wall of Eagles, death will be instantaneous. God help them if they run into some F-18Fs or F-22s. They won't even know they are dying until the number one and number two fire alarms go off.

Originally Posted by SnowLeopard

I recall in a game (or was it an old intel report?) where the Iranian F-14's were used as AWACS birds.

Now, I don't know much about that aircraft's radar, of whether it would still work or not, what it would take to make it work. That wasn't my area.

But if someone was doing something of a reverse Tu-128 situation, with a decent SAM net, where instead of ground directing the aircraft to the intercept, the aircraft is directing ground where to point the missiles (or worse) ......... then that's one flak storm I'd rather avoid.

Basic point is, if the bird can fly at all, consider all aspects of what it can be used for, not just what you would use it for.

Iran cant afford to use their F-14s as sit-back-and-watch AWACS-wannabes. First off, pilots dont make the best controllers...they have enough going on just flying their planes. The F-22 is the the pilots best friend, but not flying into a mountain or wingman still takes away from their situational awareness. Personally, I dont know how stringent Iran is to sticking to Soviet-type tactics, where GCI owns all and the pilot is treated like a 4 year old, but if thats how they do things they are going to die UNBELIEVABLY quick. A pilot giving close control vectors from his 30-year old jet 100 miles from the fight is A) going to get the fighters under his control killed because he wont be able to keep his attention on them at all critical moments and B) die shortly thereafter because those engines probably cant maintain high speeds for extended periods of time, and his airframe itself is probably unable to evade anything more maneuverable than his own ancient Phoenixes.

On top of that, look at what highly capable air-to-air fighters those Toms would be controlling: F-4s, F-5s (and several heavily modified versions), Floggers, Fencers, Su-17s, J-6s, J-7s, and Mig-29As and homemade SMTs. Aside from maybe those Fulcrums, the F-14 is still probably the best fighter they've got.

Originally Posted by Jimmy

Iran cant afford to use their F-14s as sit-back-and-watch AWACS-wannabes. First off, pilots dont make the best controllers...they have enough going on just flying their planes. The F-22 is the the pilots best friend, but not flying into a mountain or wingman still takes away from their situational awareness. Personally, I dont know how stringent Iran is to sticking to Soviet-type tactics, where GCI owns all and the pilot is treated like a 4 year old, but if thats how they do things they are going to die UNBELIEVABLY quick. A pilot giving close control vectors from his 30-year old jet 100 miles from the fight is A) going to get the fighters under his control killed because he wont be able to keep his attention on them at all critical moments and.......

I'm not much to object to a reasonable counter opinion but please at least read what is being responded to. I said nothing much, aside from the AWACS mention in something, about an F-14 being the control for other fighters. What I was theorizing was it being the airborne search to tell ground based SAMs where to go.
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Originally Posted by SnowLeopard

I said nothing much, aside from the AWACS mention in something, about an F-14 being the control for other fighters. What I was theorizing was it being the airborne search to tell ground based SAMs where to go.

That is assuming a level of integration that may be far beyond the capabilities of the Iranians and their F-14s.

Originally Posted by wabpilot

That is assuming a level of integration that may be far beyond the capabilities of the Iranians and their F-14s.

Probably so ....... but let's toy with the notion a moment. What would it take for them to be able to do so?

Ie, they probably can't do it on their own, but could they do it if they hired engineers? Hired pilots? Hired SAM operators?

Is such so unreasonable? We've worried for years that the weapons capability of the Soviet Union might end up in the wrong hands. Well, these hands probably have the money to pay for such. Besides, if Iran is involved in state sponsered terrorism (not going to bother to research it) then just as they could pay others to do the dirty work, so they might pay others to do some of the fighting.

Likely? Don't know, I don't have access to that kind of data. But look a little bit beyound the box when estimating fights like these.
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Originally Posted by SnowLeopard

Probably so ....... but let's toy with the notion a moment. What would it take for them to be able to do so?

Link 16 to begin with. The problem here is how do they get it. The Russians don't have anything like Link 16. Even if they did, it would not be backwards compatible with the AWG-9 and the communications system in the F-14. The F-14D had MIL Standard 1553 data bus, the F-14A did not, and I think the Iranian F-14As had a lot of systems crippled at the factory. First, the IRIAF would have to acquire some MIL Standard 1553 data buses and install them on their F-14As. Then they would have to design the interface between the 1553 and the AWG-9 or steal it from us. That is why the concern about spare parts sales, btw. Finally, they would have to get their hands on a Link 16. Not easy, perhaps impossible. Once they had the hardware on hand, they would have to put it all together. This is not like going down to your local Radio Shack and picking up a wireless router and setting up your own personal internet hotspot. The integration of the hardware would require a small army of engineers. A class of people the Iranians have been quite successful at running off.

Last, and most difficult would be developing a doctrine to use the system. The IRIAF has been separated from the mainstream of air warfare for 27 years. It would be highly difficult for them to develop a doctrine in a short time that is anywhere near as effective as that in use by the US.

Ie, they probably can't do it on their own, but could they do it if they hired engineers? Hired pilots? Hired SAM operators?

That would require a lot of traitors. And a lot of money. Both in short supply when it comes to Iran.

Is such so unreasonable? We've worried for years that the weapons capability of the Soviet Union might end up in the wrong hands.

That is a very different possibility. There are unconfirmed reports that the IRIAF has modified the F-14 to fire Soviet AAMs. However, if they were to try that route, then the F-14 as mini-AWACS is a dead issue. The Sovs simply did not think that way. Their centralized command and control was not ever going to pass that much authority to someone so far away from HQ. Thus, the Sovs had no systems to carry out such a scheme. If the IRIAF wanted to use the F-14 as some sort of big Russian missile carrier, they probably could do so. The existing equipment on board, if it still functions, is well suited to modification for Soviet weapons. The AWG-9 would be largely useless, other than as some kind of short range radar. But, that's what the Russians want anyway. So, mounting some Russian AAMs could be done. Now what do you have? A very tired very cobbled together Atol shooter. It's no match for the F-18C or F-16. Such a machine would be a lamb lead to slaughter against the F-18E/F, F-15C and F-22.

There is also an unconfirmed report of the IRIAF shooting down four Iraqi Mirages with a single AIM-54A. Neat trick. Given the rotten range of most radars fitted in Mirages, I can imagine an F-14 getting in position to fire an AIM-54C. I've done that lots of times against various Mirage operators. It just pissed off the RAAF when I did it. And it really embarrased the frogs. One time, I even locked up a frog Mirage III with my Phantom and stayed outside his radar range. I held lock so long that he started whining on the guard frequency. But, getting four Mirages with one AIM-54? They had to be flying straight and level and let the thing fly into their formation before it detonated. I have a hard time imagining that level of stupidity.

Didnt an Iraqi pilot drive his mig into the ground to evade an F-15 or something?

Maybe its not so farfetched after all.

Originally Posted by Jimmy

Didnt an Iraqi pilot drive his mig into the ground to evade an F-15 or something?

Yeah, but he took the time to put a heater into his own wingman first...

Originally Posted by wabpilot

Link 16 to begin with........

Fair enough! It's a good answer.
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