Praxus

"while the same money can be aimed at getting people out of poverty"

That sounds pretty clear cut to me.

I know you don't mean tax cuts, so that only leaves WELFARE.

In you post describing what you mean, you proved my point that you want them to hand the money out to people which it does not belong.

How is supplying the Afghans, have any relivence to supplying Pakistan with weapons. It is not support to the Pakistani military.

Please tell me one thing that they still have, I know a few and they have next to no relivence in a war with India. You act as if our support for them some 20 years ago somehow threatens India.

Islamic Militants have access to Russian missles similar to the Stinger, since the stingers are so old and way past their shelf life they wouldn't be any more reliable then the Russian equivilant.

s_qwert63

where in this post did i say that the indian government should hand the money out to people:

"Did I say that their government should hand out money?
Poverty eradication can be done in many different ways, they could perhaps build more schools, improve medical facilities and create better unemplyment benefits."

improving education, improving medicine and making unemplyment benefits more effective. that is what i said.
i am aware that the last might correspond to what you mean, but the government is already paying unemployment benefits, simple because there are no jobs to go around, especially for the poorly educated people.



the CIA supplied Afghanistan through Pakistan. and most caravans were delivered by Pakistanis, the Pakistanis had massive stocks of equipment in warehouses along the border. some of it was still idle when the mujahedin no longer needed support.
so hte ***** took it.



well don't tell me that a 20 year old M60 tank will not be able to drive properly...

islamic militants? wow, hold on there. that is quite a broad group of people you have there. should we include those in indonesia, phillipines, malaysia, india, chechnya, sri lanka, saudi arabia, yemen, palestine, egypt etc...???

and are you trying to say that a 20 year old stinger is just as effective as a brand new "Igla", "Strela 2M" or "Strela 3"?
I would love to see you prove that point.

Praxus

It's a peice of **** compared to what India has. These are M60A1's not M60A3's. Sure they could have been upgraded but the armour is ****.

You have no idea about tanks.

Where the **** did I mention Indian Government, I was talking about both of them.

Unemployment benifits aren't going to do ANYTHING to eradicate poverty. Only the institution of PRIVATE PROPERTY rights are going to allow these people to get Jobs. Governments do not create Jobs, people who create buisnesses create jobs.

First part, YES

If they replace the battery properly and the missile is intact then yes it is as gkkd as the Strela 3.

s_qwert63

it doesn't matter what tanks a country possesses, the pakistanis also have some newer tanks, but the M60's will do the job. im not saying they are a match for the indian T72's or T90's, but the most important thing is not what capabilities a tank has. but to what extent the crew can use those capabilities and how the generals can direct tank offensives.
and don't accuse me of not knowing **** about tanks.
how good your tank is would not tip the balance totally towards one side.
the germans had th best tanks of the second world war?
did they win the war? no...

:brick :brick :brick

so are you saying that the indian army for example is a private venture by some indian industrial tycoon?
or perhaps the indian railways, the biggest company in the world.

bigross86

Wow, you're not the greenest pea in the pod, are you?

Sure it makes a difference what capabilities a tank has. If Tank A can penetrate Tank B's armor farther and better than Tank B can penetrate Tank A's armor, than Tank A wins. Tank B could be crewed by the best of the best. If their shots can't penetrate and the enemies can, they lose.

Generals don't direct tank offenses. They make plans. It's the fighters on the field that direct the offenses. No plan ever survives first contact with the enemy.

You clearly do not know **** about tanks.

How good your tank is definetely changes the balance of war. If you have a M1A2, Merkava Mk III, Challenger, Leo2A5, or even T-80U (benefit of the doubt) and you're facing a T-54/T-55, M-4 Sherman, Centurion, or a German Tiger, than obviously the M1A2, Merkava Mk III, Challenger, Leo2A5, or even T-80U will win. Unless they sit there like dummies with all hatches open, waiting to be shot two or three times each until they are destroyed.

Obviously air superiority has something to do with it, but it's not the air battle that wins the war, now is it?

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s_qwert63

not all tank battles play out as they do on the poligon.
for example (i'm giving you this example to make you happy) the T62 had better capabilities than the M51, no doubt. but the egyptians could not take advantage of those capabilities. they lost.

does it not?
do you even have any idea of what you are saying?
ever heard of flexibility? i dont think so.



at least more than you.

let me give you a few examples:
were there large scale air battles over the skies of iraq in 1991/2003?
who held air superiority?
and why you are bringing up the issue of air superiority when we are talking about tank warfare is beyond me... :brick

bigross86

Because like I said, air superiority has an effect on tank warfare. In a 2D war, without airplanes, than the point would be moot, but it isn't.

Praxus

In 1991 the Air War knocked out 80% of their Armoured Force, Air Supperiority helped us do this.

The plan ussually becomes irrelivent after the first and engagement unless you have a completely incompetent enemy.

Officer of Engineers

No, they didn't. The Battles of Al Khafji, Kuwait Airport, Medina Ridge, and 73 Eastings proved that Iraqi arm'd capabilities were not reduced.

You completely misunderstood the quote about no battle plan surviving first contact. The plan is still very much revelent. All the OPOBJs, OPTEMPO, LDs, LOCs, etc these things remain very much static. There are decision points in which you assign yourself at which point you decide and not before which course of pre-determined action you should take which includes the jump off point. In other words, I don't make all my decisions at the beginning but as the campaign progress which includes my understanding of my CO's intent.

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Jay

More-capable Su-30MKIs leave for Indian service
Flight International Nov 3, 2003.
VLADIMIR KARNOZOV / IRKUTSK

Deliveries to the Indian air force of the next batch of Sukhoi Su-30MKI multi-role fighters with extended ground attack capability began on 16 October from NPK Irkut's IAPO plant in Irkutsk.

India has received 18 Su-30Ks and 10 Su-30MKIs. The current batch of 12 aircraft is being shipped in semi-disassembled form on Volga-Dnepr Antonov An-124-100s.

The Indian air force intends to have the aircraft fully operational by the end of November. The current batch features enhanced ground strike capability and incorporates new software providing for the integration of additional types of anti-ship and air-to-ground guided weapons. Earlier Su-30MKIs delivered to India had limited ground attack capability, with unguided weapons.

The remaining 10 Su-30MKIsare due for delivery by the end of 2004. These will act as specimens for aircraft by Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL). Flight testing of the final Su-30MKI variant is set for completion by the mid-2004.

NPK Irkut has begun transfer of tooling to HAL as part of the Su-30 licence-assembly contract. HAL will begin assembling fins, stabilisers and wings and expects to complete 140 Su-30MKIs between 2004 and 2017. Together with direct deliveries from Irkut and licence production, the deal is valued at more than $5 billion.

Meanwhile, Israel Aircraft Industries (IAI) has been invited to join NPK Irkut, Ilyushin and HAL to develop the Multi-role Transport Aircraft (MTA).

NPK Irkut president Aleksei Fiodorov says IAI involvement would require revision of the earlier Russo-Indian interstate agreements that specify 50:50 distribution of project workload among Russian and Indian firms. Russian and Indian partners are continuing talks on establishing a formal joint venture to handle the MTA project, which would probably be registered in India.

The MTA team aims to complete initial design work on the twin-jet transport by the end of this year and proceed immediately to full-scale development.

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BenRoethig

Wouldn't the MKIs have the same problems since they have the same engines?

vasista_tata

:flamemad
dear man continue dreaming:angel :angel and get :YIKES! when we reveal them to the world.we are upgrading them

SCobra

Sure, India has poverty, but we can not let our enemies with whom we fought wars and border clashes to fulfill their ambitions and our border unguarded.Stop equating India and Pakistan.

Tronic

wow.. what an old thread to revive. Though reading back on this stuff, some of it is golden. Ironical to see someone say about upgrading the MK-1s to MKIs a wetdream... Hehe, guess it wasn't a wetdream afterall..

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texasjohn

Kinda reminds me of the "ARJUN won't happen story"!!