Thread: God damn! IAF's MK-1's bust RSAF F-16C's in the fun-hole!

Come on now - MK-1 ands I is/are a capable aircraft, perhaps even a air dominance feature in the Pakistan/India context, but lets remember that the most potent weapon in the air is the pilot and his familiarity with his adversary's tactics and envelope.

A one to one comparison is plain silly, after all, what is required is to to deter agression and this will not involve a one to one match up - it is a complex of survaillance, command and control, training and tactics.

In my opinion, none of these reports call for hysterical responses.

Tarek,
You are wrong. Pilot skill, tactics are very relative. Are you suggesting IAF's pilots and tactics are not up to the mark?? MKI's will beat the crap out of anything that Pakistan can field, you need to atleast "see" the MKI before you can fight them. With AWACS, PAF's planes are sitting ducks and thats what Lull is trying to say. Even if PAF acquires Block 52's there are glaring holes in PAF's defence.

Its a simple truth, PAF with its current fleet will be decimated by IAF. And with each passing year IAF will keep on adding MKI's.

See the issue now is that the IAF has totally outclassed the PAF both numerically and now convincingly in quality terms also! It was just earlier this year when we saw the Alaskan ANG units totally humbled by the Mk-1's at Gawalior! In fact one of these hindoo/ mouzlum website was boasting about how the IAF jocks 90% of time were totally able to out fight the F-15's! Both in BVR and close combat! Many a time they also pulled a fast one with their IRST, and utilizing the IR variants of the R-27, and even the R-77, which now comes in both types of seekers. I have also read that the HMS/ R-73 combi was a dangerous one too. The thing that bothered me was that the IAF has actually devised proper BVR air combat tactics!

So when the upgraded F-15C's from the Alaskan ANG with a more powerful and better BVR radar, twice the God-damn thrust of the F-16, Twice the air to air loadout! and better trained pilots than these 2 cent RSAF goons, yeah may be you are right, I shouldn't be so startled!

I know that there can never be another India Pakistan hunger contest ever again, ( because of nuclear parity) but right now if India were to attack Pakistan, man the conventional fight wil be over before this chamcha musharraf will have the time to come on his pathetic TV station and make a bogus speech to give as a pathetic excuse for the ass beating he will recieve, and how his broke ass could not procure anything!

Trust me man, right now 28 worthless Pakistani Block-15 F-16's face over 45 Mirage-2000H's, 75 Mig-29B's, and no fewer than 60 MKI's! The fight will be over before it will have time to even start. IAF right now has the capability to rip the PAF apart.

Courtesy : BR

Originally Posted by Jay

Tarek,
You are wrong. Pilot skill, tactics are very relative. Are you suggesting IAF's pilots and tactics are not up to the mark?? MKI's will beat the crap out of anything that Pakistan can field, you need to atleast "see" the MKI before you can fight them. With AWACS, PAF's planes are sitting ducks and thats what Lull is trying to say. Even if PAF acquires Block 52's there are glaring holes in PAF's defence.

Its a simple truth, PAF with its current fleet will be decimated by IAF. And with each passing year IAF will keep on adding MKI's.

Dude Jay thats precisely the point! The block-52's just got the living shiit beaten out of them! It wil be totally stupid for Pakistan to go for any F-16! I hate to admit it, but the MKI has truly become a God-damn scourge for the PAF!

The only solution for the PAF to somehow equalize this scenario is to acquire Chinese SKs/ MKK's! Because the West will never release anything more than these worthless F-16's for them! But I highly doubt that has even the remotest possibility of happening because Putin will checkmate the Chinese on that! Already the future delivery of the RD-98's to China for eventual Photo-copying for the proposed FC-1 fighter are in question!

Originally Posted by tarek

... but lets remember that the most potent weapon in the air is the pilot and his familiarity with his adversary's tactics and envelope.

You have a point there. In the 1965 Indo-Pak war, the IAF was technologically inferior to the PAK which had the F-86 Sabres and F-104 Starfighters. The IAF only had Gnats, Hunters, the aging Mystieres and Su-7s. But the air war was more of a stalemate. Subsonic Gnats were shooting down Supersonic F-86 and F-104, with just guns no missiles. The MIG-21s were just being inducted and not many saw action.

The sanctions have hit the PAK fighter fleet. Pakistan will have to beef up its fleet to counter any future threat. The nuke option does not exist. Future wars will be de-escalated types as in Kargil. Since, the Pak govt denied that its troops were up there, they could not provide air support to its Northern Light Inf troops. After the loss of its two aircrafts (1 by engine flame out and the other by missile hit) the IAF deployed Mirage-2000s with ECM capability. This look care of the (passive SEAD requirement), and then the smart laser guided bombs slautered the poor infantry guys on the Kargil heights.

Lull

I agree that the IAF have now "totally outclassed" PAF - where I disagree is in the methodology of analysis, where in we are arriving at conclusions based on a one on one comparison.

The point about AWAC is also taken, but note the capablity inferred by AWAC has nothing to do with MKI, other than to present it as a weapons launch platform.

I do respect BVR capablity, as I respect the fact that even such aircraft as the MKI are equipped with guns/cannon - can one take that these too will employed from distances which present the aircraft as invisible? One would have thought AWAC and BVR would have made such a capablity redundant, perhaps a more complicated scenario is envisioned by policy makers.

Jay.

Indeed MKI is a potent weapon, in fact I have said that in the context of Pakistan/India it can even be a "Air dominance" weapon system.

The point I'm trying to make is PAF or any section of Pakistani armed forces cannot in the prevailing circumstances, and indeed out not, do other than induct capablity that presents a credible deterrent, that deny assurance of victory to it's adversaries.

We now have two rather complementary reports of MKI capablity against F15C and F16 - we can be assured that the F15 and F16 pilots did not go home empty handed - We have to keep in mind that the two reviews we are familiar with are both complementary and rather shallow - again, I'm not suggesting that this mean that MKI is not capable or excellent or Indian pilots are X or Y or Z, rather, that we may keep our powder dry and expend it on more detailed and critical analysis.

Courtesy : Pirate (CDF)

Man Iam really surprised! First thing is that this RSAF is not some "Bumm-fukk" type AF! they train fairly hard and with USAF/ USN and the IDF all the time!

IAF has improved itself tremendously! From taking a drubbing in 65, to a better show in 71, and now this!

While PAF rots along with pathetic types in service such as God-damn 40 year old MirageIII/ V's, F-7 and A-5,

Top guns clash over India RSAF F-16s engage Indian fighters in dogfights, exercise deemed a success Clement Mesenas
clement@newstoday.com.sg

Singapore's top guns have been engaging in dogfights with their Indian counterparts in the open skies over Gwalior in western India in a 15-day exercise which ends today. And they have fared well, considering that the Indian Air Force includes veterans with real battle experience.
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"It was a good exercise, which allowed our Republic of Singapore Air Force (RSAF) pilots to interact with a well-established air force with highly-professional operators," said a Ministry of Defence (Mindef) spokesman.
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Key to the exercise were two factors: One, it provided the RSAF access to new air training space and two, to engage for the first time, with Russian-made aircraft using different weapon platforms.
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Six F-16 Fighting Falcon jets from the RSAF, led by Detachment Commander Lt Col Anil Sanker, 39, engaged in aerial combat with aircraft deployed by the Indian Air Force, which included the top-of-the-line Sukhoi-30, MiG-27, and MiG-29 and the Mirage 2000.
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The MiGs and the F-16s are comparable in terms of manoeuvrability, sophistication of avionics and weapons systems, say analysts.
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Both Singapore and Indian pilots tested their skills in one-on-one dogfights, which escalated to two-on-two clashes and eventually involved up to as many as 10 aircraft.
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Considering that the Indians, in their Sukhoi-30s, triumphed over a visiting American team in their F-15 Eagles in exercises earlier this year at Gwalior, how did the RSAF pilots, who have fared well in international competitions, do?
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A Times of India news report, quoting IAF sources, said the Indian pilots proved more than a match for their visitors.
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Responding, a Mindef spokesman said: "We can understand why the Indian media would come out with a sensational story like this.
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"We are very pleased with the exercise and the performance of the RSAF's pilots and aircraft. The Indian Air Force has been an excellent host, and as their guest, it would not be courteous for us to comment on the specific outcomes of the exercise."
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The RSAF was, however, keener to elaborate on the knowledge it had gained from the exercise, a first between the two countries.
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Chief of Air Force Maj-Gen Lim Kim Choon, who watched the exercise at Gwalior yesterday, said: "The exercise has enabled us to train with a well-established air force. We are learning much from our interactions with the IAF's excellent aviators."
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In fact, the RSAF top brass is very pleased as the F-16 detachment had earlier taken part in an exercise in Dijon, France.
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With two KC-135 tankers and one C-130 transport aircraft in support, the detachment undertook the journey from France to India, a deployment that required complex planning and extensive logistical preparation, Mindef said.
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Air Commodore S P Rajguna (Air Officer Commanding Air Force Station Gwalior) described the exercise as mutually beneficial and said it provided invaluable learning experiences to the participants.
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Both Air Commodore Rajguna and Maj-Gen Lim spoke of better interaction and co-operation in future exercises.
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With Singapore and India having a 10-year relationship in joint naval exercises, more bilateral air training exercises appear to be a distinct possibility on top of the current training detachments the RSAF has for its F-16 aircraft in the United States, France and Australia.

http://www.todayonline.com/articles/28359.asp

Hmmm....... So the iAF claims an all out ass rape? while the "gracious" singapore faags wouldn't comment on the specifics of it??? Comeon now! how gracious are they??? Bend over on the slightest pretext?

Sheeeeeeeeeeesh..makes me wanna bust out laughing.

Sounds like we all know what happened!

do we have any confirmed reports of the relative performance of the two AF's ??..
About PAF.Their main problem is their economic size wrt to india.they lack money to purchase in scale or even purchase comparable technologies .