A10 vs SU-25

**Fury** · 31 Jul 04, 12:07

Which one do you like? There was article like this in the combat aircraft magazine. Both aircrafts have huge cannon, A10 has the seven barrelled 30mm gun and SU-25 has twin barrelled 30mm.

**Bill** · 31 Jul 04, 15:34

The 7 bbl gun from the A-10 fires the extremely powerful 30x173mm cartridge. The gun of the Frogfoot fires a much less powerful round more comparable to the NATO 30mm 'light' round(as used by the Apache, etc).

The GAU-8/A Avenger cannon is 21 feet long and weighs over 3,000lbs. It has a cyclic rate of fire of 4200 rpm. It has an ammunition capacity of 1176rds of 30mm, typicly loaded in a 'party mix' of 1AP:2HE. With the USAF LASTE system the gun of the A-10 is far more employable and accurate than when it was first introduced.

The A-10 is also armored to the teeth with a titanium 'bathtub' that completely encircles the pilot.

The SU-25 is actually based on the loser of the competition that produced the A-10, the Northrop A-9.

BTW, at low altitude- an A-10 can outturn an F-16C.

**Fury** · 31 Jul 04, 16:56

Does GAU8 have saboted DU penetrators, Im asking because I've seen pictures from operation desert storm, there were T-55 tanks which had nearly a fist sized holes all over theri turret and hull so I figured those holes must have been done by A10 but I dont think the standard armor piercing indenciary round will penetrate T-55 armor not even from sides.

**Praxus** · 31 Jul 04, 17:36

They have DU rounds, I don't know if they are saboted or not.

**Bill** · 31 Jul 04, 18:22

They do have DU, they are not saboted, the ammunition is PGU-14 30mm HVAPDU. It has a muzzle velocity of 3,500fps- a slant range in excess of 1 mile, and will easily penetrate the top armor of ANY known main battle tank(Including the M-1 of all variants).

T-55's were killed in ODS1 with 25mm Bradley chain-gun fire, btw. A T-55 is vulnerable to practicly every weapons system on the modern battlefield, including the M-82A1 and M-2 .50 cals. using modern APDSDU ammunition.

The PGU-14 can penetrate over 6" of RHA, more than triple the thickness of the top armor on pretty much any battle tank around.

**Praxus** · 31 Jul 04, 18:29

Originally Posted by M21Sniper

They do have DU, they are not saboted, the ammunition is PGU-14 30mm HVAPDP. It has a muzzle velocity of 3,500fps- a slant range in excess of 1 mile, and will easily penetrate the top armor of ANY known main battle tank.

T-55's were killed in ODS1 with 25mm Bradley chain-gun fire, btw. A T-55 is vulnerable to practicly every weapons system on the modern battlefield, including the M-82A1 and M-2 .50 cals. using modern APDSDU ammunition.

The PGU-14 can penetrate over 6" of RHA, more than triple the thickness of the top armor on pretty much any battle tank around.

Do they carry any APDSDU rounds for M-2's on Bradleys and Abrams and such?

**Bill** · 31 Jul 04, 19:36

The M-1 Abrams can carry as much .50 SLAP(Saboted Light Armor Piercing) ammunition- or as little- as the Commander deems appropriate, or the supply chain can provide.

It is superior to ball in all respects.

The Bradley does not have a .50cal machinegun.

**Fury** · 31 Jul 04, 23:09

I suppose the SU-25 has the same cannon as the BMP-2 and 3 only a twin barrelled configuration. I have a shell on my desk that is 30x165, where is this from? there are no markings visible probably worn off.

**Bill** · 31 Jul 04, 23:18

30x165 is the cartridge of the SU-25.

Velocity for the HE round is 960m/s(3150fps) with a 388 gram projectile.

Velocity of the APDS Tungsten round is 1120m/s(3,670fps) with a 304 gram projectile.

Velocity for the A-10's GAU-8/A PGU-14 HVAPDU ammunition is 1,066 m/s (3,500fps) with a 390 gram projectile.

There is also APDSDU ammunition that is used in the GoalKeeper CIWS that uses the same GAU-8/A gun of the A-10. That ammunition has a Mv of 1,280 m/s (4,200fps) and a projectile weight of 325 grams. It's not used in the A-10 because the PGU-14 ammunition is cheaper, and is still overkill for pretty much anything.

**Fury** · 01 Aug 04, 11:29

Goalkeeper hmm..Doesn't the russian navy have same kind of point defense system with dual gatling type 30mm cannons and SAM missiles.
I just wathced a video of A-10 releasing four MK20 cluster bombs

and all the sudden I don't like the idea of being an infantryman anymore

**Bill** · 01 Aug 04, 11:31

Yeah, the Soviet CIWS systems has two 30mm guns(again, the shorter 30x165 vs the GoalKeepers 30x173). I think that twin mount uses the SA-N-11 SAM.

I think the mount is called ZSU-630 CADS or something to that effect.

**HawkEye** · 02 Aug 04, 07:05

The A-10 was only built to carry the AN/GAU-8 30mm Avenger (later the GAU-8/A)

*A typical combat load for the GAU-8 would include 1,100 rounds of 30mm high explosive or armor piercing ammunition. The 30mm API is mixed with 30mm High Explosive Incendiary (HEI) at the factory and is called Combat Mix Ammunition. The ratio of API to HEI rounds in the Combat Mix is 4:1. Combat mix is a sequential mixture of DU and HEI rounds in which 1 HEI round followed by 4 DU rounds are fired by the AN/GAU-8 gatling gun. DU is the primary munition for the A/OA-10 in a combat environment.

*taken from http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/equip/gau-8.htm

I have seen the gun (without the aircraft) at EOD school someone very smart thought up a really cool weapon system..... then needed a really good aircraft to carry it in the air..... that is the A-10. Pound for pound the best close-air support attack jet in the world IMO.

Being on the wrong end of this weapon is never a good idea for anyone in the world.

The Members of the U.S.M.C. In Iraq seem to like the A-10 just fine.

Keeping Combat Troops alive is the job of the A-10 and the Combat Troops like having the A-10 around..... So I like having the A-10 around.

HawkEye

**Bill** · 02 Aug 04, 08:32

The gun was developed for the plane, not the other way around. The original prototypes flew with the M-61A1 Vulcan because the Avenger cannon was not ready yet.

I posted some pix i took of a GAU-8/A with the service bays open at NAS Willowgrove when i was visiting a stick actuator that posts at my board up there(it's about 25 minutes from my house). Good close up detailed stuff.

Here's a link:

GAU-8A Avenger pix

Some buddies of mine over in Iraq also took the liberty of personalizing some 2.75" rockets for the army guy that runs by far the best A-10 site on the planet(Yes those rockets were fired in anger):

Warthog Territory - The A-10 Thunderbolt II

**HawkEye** · 02 Aug 04, 08:36

The AIrcraft was built to get the Gun System in the Air.

HawkEye

**Bill** · 02 Aug 04, 08:50

No, it was built to provide CAS. The gun was invented to give it teeth. The concept of the plane, the A-X, came before the gun. The gun was developed for the A-X competition between the Fairchild YA-10 and Northrop YA-9.

If you want to talk A-10, try here:

www.a-10.org

There are dozens of A-10 personnel from crew dogs, to load toads, to hog drivers that post there regularly(lots of other military too). It is easily best a-10 website on the planet.

I've run it for the last 2 years since the former NCOIC of the Hill AFB Hog Depot stepped down.

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