gf0012-aust

Couple of pertinent facts:

• 98% of our population is on the eastern seaboard and within Class 2 wind (ie generally less than 50km from coast)
• 98% of our trade comes by sea
• australia has territorial rights and management responsibility for approx 1/9th of the world waterways/oceans

we certainly need depth of field and range and persistence dealt with.

on another note, unsure of to this forums policy about linking to other sites, so if I am in breach I apologise in advance.

http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5630

otherwise refer to the Aviation section on DefTalk re FA/18F's for Australia.

The above link is interesting for me mainly because a few of us do see some decision making links and advantages for India (USN has agreed to break their delivery cycle so that RAAF can get their Rhinos on time). That has the potential to positively influence any staggered Indian delivery as it would mean a backfill on an Indian order without interrupting (again) an Indian tranche.

Geographically in the main, there aren't too many differences at all. I've been to India a few times for my work, and you could take any blindfolded australian into the indian countryside, remove their blindfold and they would think that they are in Northern NSW.

You just have bigger mountains.

As for the Rafale getting up - I'd almost be willing to bet my house that it won't wear Indian roundels.

MarquezRazor

Be careful.. you dont wanna lose your house over an aircraft concerning a third country

gf0012-aust

maybe I'll bet my ex's house then...

BenRoethig

They're better in a high speed aerial engagement. Other than that the Super Bugs are longer ranged, carry a larger payload, and are cheaper. To be honest, If I were India, I'd be looking at the Gripen.

__________________
F/A-18E/F Super Hornet: The Honda Accord of fighters.

BenRoethig

I think you're assuming the numbers for the smaller F/A-18A/B/C/D Hornet. The F/A-18E/F Super Hornet is a new, larger aircraft.

avon1944

Flight International Magazine -12/05
United Bank -Moscow
A venture capital bank in a report was among the first to recommend the merger of Mikoyan and Sukhoi, to it is international investors that have kept these two companies afloat over the last fifthteen years. It is banks like this that recommend yes or no to these investors about where to place their money. Banks like this is where companies like these go when they need large amount of money. So people listen to these reports.
The report urged real priority be placed on the fifth generation aircraft. That if the Russian generation aircraft arrive to late there will be no international sales available. There will be less fifth generation aircraft built than fourth generation aircraft. This translates into only Russian needs will be filled and the investors will not see a decent return on their investment, after so many years of waiting!

Adrian

Garry

Yes and that is why it is indeed far from being light in both terms of take off weight... price... and maintenance. It still does not match long-range heavy fighters though. Lets call it.... middle class....

Garry

The merger of Sukhoi, Irkut, Yakovlev, Tupolev, Ilyushin is taking place right NOW. MiG will join on April 2007. By mid 2007 United Aircraft Corporation will include all Russian aircraft brands into one big company...

Russian Ministry of Defense is now studying possible participation of India and/or China in fifth generation fighter project. The CORNERSTONE problem is that both Indians and Chinese DID LEAK a lot of information and technologies from designs provided to them... This may create a threat to Russian Air Force.... so far MOD are opposing any participation of third countries including Ukraine. However this means that Russian AF would need to spend more money alone. Seems they haven't yet decided on this issue.

MarquezRazor

Leaked to whom?

MarquezRazor

Russia had already offered India to participate in the 5th gen PAKFA program....and India at first gave positive signals.But then there was a problem.The thing is India dont want another heavy fighter as the 5th gen...since they are inducting a heavy plane such as Su30 in large nos.Also India have a program for a 5th gen fighter of their own called the MCA.There were also reports that India was interested in a lightweight 5th gen fighter program by RACMig...which was demonstrated to an Indian delegation.

And then Sukhoi had offered China to participate in their 5th gen programme during the Zhuhai airshow2006.But Thats still to be cleared by the Russian Gov.And also China have their own 5th gen programme.So how much they want to participate is not clear at this moment.

Garry

None of the proposals were cleared by MOD. There was no point to start such a process before India agrees to take SIGNIFICANT committments. So far India played opportunistic and independent. However with this approach their participation would jeopardise all efforts invested into fifth gen.

I think that India is unlikelly to be capable to produce 5th gen programe alone.... It would lack important issues for example - radar and engine. This technologies would be guarded for the next decade at least before becoming available to the export.... so in order to tap into them India would need a lot of commitments. which it does not like giving.

So.... there is a serious problem for coopertion here

Garry

India refuses to buy any equipement which has binding on its usage. This is problem for Boeing offer of Super Hornets....

Same with MKI. It was sold without any binding agreements (only prohibiting re-exports next 15 years). Use of MKI in games with USAF is a LEAK.... authorised though. Transfer of engineers from HAL to USA is also not regulated.... This was never demanded. But if India goes to 5th gen it needs to undertake a lot of obligations. Limit, interaction of certain HAL employees with foreign counterparts and their visits... Limit participation of new aircraft in war games with other countries... etc.

MarquezRazor

Well..I cant agree on that actually.India and Russia are committed together to a number of projects..so I dont think that there was any problem regarding the clearance part..and theres no chance of Russian MoD not clearing it.Projects like Brahmos,the ongoing projects like Ks172 etc.has showed the level of understanding between the Russian and Indian Gov...so thats not a problem.

They main problem as I said were that India wanted a 5th gen customized for their own use...and the Sukhoi PAKFA program is more suited to Russian needs and not Indias.

Well..I think its a bit pre-mature to say that now...The LCA program is finally ending.with the slated IOC in 2008 and FOC on 2010..and India has gained valuable expertise...plus the groundwork and the infrastructure has more or less been laid...so there wont be as much of a problem to develop another aircraft now...like its been with the LCA.

Yes..the radar and engine are sore points in that.The Kaveri programe is being given special attention...but I am a bit circumspect...abt that.However..they can be obtained from third countries...like radar for eg.Israel can supply the 2052,engines can come from anywhere like Snecma,Saturn..etc.And keeping in mind the problems faced by India regarding the hiccups in LCA program regarding engines etc..I think they will be much more ready to deal with these problems if they arise.

MarquezRazor

Yes that is true.And India has alwyas insisted upon the best equipment and has refuse to accept downgraded equipments.

Participating in exercises I dont think can be considered a LEAK as such.Even the Indians didnt show of the full capabilities and whatever was shown I am sure the US had already had some idea about.And I think theres good understanding between the Russians and the Indians as to upto what level information can be de-classified.

For a long time now..India and Russia has been co-operating on a lot of projects..and also a lot of high level projects are also going on currently...and I havent heard anything about the Russians getting upset over exercises..In fact I suspect,that the data gained by the Indians in those exercises with Western forces..a significant part of them is being shared with the Russians...and not the other way round.

joey2

India Fielded MK1 version for one time only i think and that too "the radar was off", so how is it a leak?
I dont think they used all modes of radar.


Garry I couldnt agree more, please do it i want it.
I dont exactly know how the thing is, or works but there is a possibility.

Brain Drain is a core issue, does Russia has Visa regulations controlling brain drains?
Not to mention how the dumb phuk media plays important role in this brain drain.
Maybe Archer can point out if there is a possibility of such issue.

Again i agree with you, you've hit the point developing radar is not hard for india miniaturizing the computational power on such low scale is challenging.
But then again why is Israel for?

About Engines its the same thing, We have demostrated mach 8 engine but developing a full fleged airframe engine doesnt requires innovation but a series of proven steps which would come easier with co-operation.

India has huge capability to offer in a 5th gen , but it would be smooth with cooperation.

But then again you know, the way Tech goes to other hand from China.
Which is a concern for us so which way to go?
Quite critical and the way of self sufficiency has been started and it'll take long to achieve.

Is it true many Russian stuffs are now funded by China for completion?
Like china paid billions for having help from soyuz etc etc.

Its quite tuff for GOI and indeed a challenge for our scientists to develope MCA if they wants to do the entire thing here.

How about possibility of leak of APG 79 and thus US refraining to sell such class AESA?
The previous hornets used to have apg 73 I think.
Does Israel has APG 79?