Thread: F-15C vs. Su-30MKI

Originally Posted by M21Sniper

What Jay said.

If you take away AWACS, Jamming, AIM-9X, and outnumber F-15s with SU-30MkIs with the quality of pilots that the Indians have(arguably among the very best in the world), you SHOULD smoke the Eagles, don't you think?

If you couldn't, then it would mean you're facing the F-22........lol.

The SU-33 is a OLDER naval fighter, the SU-35 is just a russian version of the MkI(more or less), and not as capable, and the SU-37 is unfunded and probably IS the max of what a Flanker can be.

Like i said, the ACTIVE Eagle would give a SU-37 or any Flanker all it could handle. You have to remember that the F-15C has not been upgraded in over a decade. It is an old plane with high miles and obsolete systems.

Even with all that, supported properly the Eagle C is still a damned lethal opponent BVR, and with AIM-9X it is the equal to anything in the sky WVR.

AIM-9X makes your planes turn rate pretty irrelevant. I am quite confident that a Eagle pilot using JHMCS can turn his head and lock a AIM-9X on target MUCH faster than an SU-anything can turn.

Point taken.
However, when compared to each other the Su is no doubt better at most of the characteristics. Partly because, as you mentioned because it is a newer aircraft.

The SR-71 is the only aircraft that could, and regularly did, outrun SAMs. During it's career the SR-71 outran over 1000 enemy SAMs from numerous countries.

The MIG-25 could also outrun some missiles, depending on the engagement parameters and range of the shot.

Most US aircraft are limited to a ceiling of 50,000 feet because of the limitations of the life support systems aboard.

The SR-71 could exceed 100,000 feet.

"Point taken.
However, when compared to each other the Su is no doubt better at most of the characteristics. Partly because, as you mentioned because it is a newer aircraft."

I agree. The SU-30MkI is in my opinion the best fighter in the world right now.

The F-22 is better, but that's about it. I don't really think the EF2000 is as manueverable as the SU either, but it is more stealthy, and does have very, very modern avionics.

The key though is support and the pilots, as always.

The MIG-25 could also outrun some missiles, depending on the engagement parameters and range of the shot.

Yup, a pair of IAF Mig - 25's ran a reconn sortie on Islamabad in 1997, all Pakistan cud do was hear the sonic boom with an awe

In May 1997, an Indian Mig-25 reconnaisance aircraft made headlines after it was detected in Pakistani Airspace. The aircraft would have gone unnoticed had the IAF pilot not broken the sound barrier, causing a huge sonic boom over Islamabad. The noise, which resembled explosions, caused panic amongst the residents of Islamabad. The Pakistan Air Force(PAF) immediately scrambled their American made F-16's, armed with sidewinder missiles. However the Mig-25 flew beyond the range of Pakistani air defences and interceptor capabilities, well over 65,000 feet.

Dr. Arvind Bhatnagar of the Udaipur Solar Observatory supervised the MiG-25 aircraft flying at 80,000 feet altitude as they traveled along the path of the eclipse at 3,000 km/h, gaining several precious minutes of observation denied to researchers stuck on the ground. The copilot's took direct and polarization images. A Canberra aircraft flew at 40,000 feet with the same apparatus.

http://users.senet.com.au/~wingman/recce1.html

A Mig-25 also outran a Phoenix missile during ODS, but it was an extreme BVR shot. Still, any other fighter would have been overtaken by the Mach 5+ Phoenix.

The Mig-25 did burn it's Tumanskiys up in the process of escaping though, and the aircraft limped home dead stick.

Originally Posted by M21Sniper

On spring Cope a few things are important to remember.

The F-15s were outnumbered, always by at least 2:1.

The F-15s did not have AIM-9X.

The F-15s did not have AWACS or Prowler support, which they'd have in a real wartime scenario.

Snoozing the radar is a great way to close undetected......unless there is an AWACS around.

Also, the radar of the F-22 will not show up on a standard RWR set, so the F-22 does not have to snooze the radar to remain stealthy.

To the best of my knowledge the Eagles used at Spring Cope WERE equipped with the APG-63(V)2 AESA radar.

Don't you think that enemy might be using AWACS as well..... then what is the point of a stealthy F-22? if AWACS is equiped with a multiband radars it may guide SU-30 to F-22......

what is different with the radar of the F-22? Can you give me some info why it will not show up?

The F-22 is not just hard to see on radar, and by all acounts it is VERY hard to see. A little birdie with flight wings told me that USAF pre-production F-22s have gotten inside AMRAAMs WEZ on numerous occasions in early tactical and operational tests against US E-3B Sentry AWACS before being detected.

However, there's more than that. The F-22 has a comprehensive sensor suite tied to massively powerful on-board computers called CIPs.(Each CIP is the equivelant of a Cray-7 Supercomputer). Incoming sensor data from the F-22s highly advanced RWR and AESA LPI radar in recieve mode are processed through the CIPS, creating a color display on his MFD showing the 'danger zones' of detection. IOW, if there is too much EW energy for the F-22 to 'hide', the pilot can simply fly around that area of coverage.

Further, while an F-22 will eventually be picked up by radar, it is well inside the AMRAAM C-5s WEZ. When released by a supercruising F-22 the AIM-120(or AIM-9X or whatever) missile has approxomately 20% more range than when launched from a subsonic fighter.

So if the F-22 gets within about 40 miles of you before you see it(or about 50 miles or so against a lumbering target like an AWACS)........

AMRAAM time.

Besides, an F-22 will utterly leave an SU-30 of any model in the dust if the pilot doesn't feel like engaging. Supercruise is a wonderful thing.

If the pilot decides to close to engage, the Flankers radar and missiles will be greatly restricted in range before a lock can be obtained, while the F-22s will not(The SU has a RCS the size of a billboard).

If the F-22 decides to close to WVR, the SU is facing an 11G sustained machine(that's 2 more Gs than anything else in the sky can pull), armed with AIM-9X and a helmet sight.

F-22 pilots call ACM against non-stealth fighters "Clubbing baby seals" for a reason you know.

To the best of my knowledge a normal human being can only handle 9G of gravitational pull.So 11 G can be only of some use in missiles or unmanned fighters.
Secondly A Su-30MKI (Indian ) Has 3D Thrust Vectoring. An improtant thing to note is that the US Raptor dsnt have a 3D vectoring but a 2D one.So technically Su-30Mki is more maneoverable via its airframe and also the 3D vectoring.

Secondly the last confrontation of the SU30 with F15 was between india and US.If Us didnt use the latest F15s in their arsenal then even the indians didnt even show them the MKI's .Americans had to be satisfied with the MK versions only i.e. without Thrust vectoring and The Advanced Radars and avionics.

I dont intend to say that MKI is better than F22 .Bec the real test shall be on the real confrontation. Regarding the AESA MKI's are supposed to have AESA by 2006-7. The best i know abt the MKI radar is that it s a miniawac in itself it detected a su27 at 350kms. during tests.
Though the worst part about MKI is taht it cant supercruise and thus cant really run away. which the F22 can easily do.

But regarding The F15s i dont really think they can compete with MKI's(not any other version bec of the thrust vectoring and also MKI's is being integrated with the better of the missiles in teh Russian Armoury including a 160km range AtoA missile which is under development in Russia(i dont think the russins shall have any probs in giving it to india). and also the Brahmos to be integrated with MKi giving it the edge in Ground attack.

Regards
Ajay

Regarding the Su35 its the SU 27 with canards and SU37 is su35 with TVC .Thus MKI is actualy better than both bec it even has the french and israeli avionics(i dont think that u'll consider that the indian components will give it much of an edge).Israeli ones are believed to be frm their f16 sufa program .
So i dont think today any aircraft except raptor EF or maybe rafale(though i m not sure abt this one) can compete with MKI.
We indians call it the air dominance fighter.
Furthermore every batch of MKi shall be a new version its planned to be like this .So with time we might have MKI competing with the EF if not Raptor.

Regards
Ajay

Originally Posted by ajaybhutani

To the best of my knowledge a normal human being can only handle 9G of gravitational pull.So 11 G can be only of some use in missiles or unmanned fighters.
Secondly A Su-30MKI (Indian ) Has 3D Thrust Vectoring. An improtant thing to note is that the US Raptor dsnt have a 3D vectoring but a 2D one.So technically Su-30Mki is more maneoverable via its airframe and also the 3D vectoring.

Secondly the last confrontation of the SU30 with F15 was between india and US.If Us didnt use the latest F15s in their arsenal then even the indians didnt even show them the MKI's .Americans had to be satisfied with the MK versions only i.e. without Thrust vectoring and The Advanced Radars and avionics.

I dont intend to say that MKI is better than F22 .Bec the real test shall be on the real confrontation. Regarding the AESA MKI's are supposed to have AESA by 2006-7. The best i know abt the MKI radar is that it s a miniawac in itself it detected a su27 at 350kms. during tests.
Though the worst part about MKI is taht it cant supercruise and thus cant really run away. which the F22 can easily do.

But regarding The F15s i dont really think they can compete with MKI's(not any other version bec of the thrust vectoring and also MKI's is being integrated with the better of the missiles in teh Russian Armoury including a 160km range AtoA missile which is under development in Russia(i dont think the russins shall have any probs in giving it to india). and also the Brahmos to be integrated with MKi giving it the edge in Ground attack.

Regards
Ajay

That is true... Su-30 with Al-31FP is already beyond the limit for maneuvrability for aircraft of that size and mass... it can perform such a sudden turns at speeds at which pilot has absolutelly no chance to remain concious due to high G-force. To prevent this there is a special system built in to disable such turn if tried by pilot manually. Can not be switched by pilot but only on the ground....

however aircrafts with smaller mass may still make sharper turns at the same speed as it would require less force and therefore mean less G force to both plane and pilot inside

I just have a little doubt.. i believe that the measurement 9G signifies that the force is squivalent to what 9 times the gravitational pull will apply on a person.U are right by saying that on a smaller aircraft the same 9G means smaller force than a bigger aircraft.But it dsnt mean that the whole weight of the aircraft has to be handled by the pilot he just experiences a gravitational pull on his body and so it should not matter wether he is in a SU30MKi or in a Gripen/LCA and taking a 9G turn he will feel the same force as his weight remains the samei if it was dependent on the aircraft why would they measure it in G's they should measure it in actual Newton equivalents instead ??????........

Originally Posted by ajaybhutani

I just have a little doubt.. i believe that the measurement 9G signifies that the force is squivalent to what 9 times the gravitational pull will apply on a person.U are right by saying that on a smaller aircraft the same 9G means smaller force than a bigger aircraft.But it dsnt mean that the whole weight of the aircraft has to be handled by the pilot he just experiences a gravitational pull on his body and so it should not matter wether he is in a SU30MKi or in a Gripen/LCA and taking a 9G turn he will feel the same force as his weight remains the samei if it was dependent on the aircraft why would they measure it in G's they should measure it in actual Newton equivalents instead ??????........

I just talked to an engineer and he confirmed that you are correct here ... it is plane which will encounter a higher force not a pilot inside. A pilot inside will encounter the force to overcome inertia which is related to his own mass.

Originally Posted by lurker

They will PR Su-27 over F-15 to squeeze more money for F-22
(that is infro from "Sukhoj" company)

Utter rot! Governments arn't fools and Air Force Topguns can't fool politicians. George Bush and Rumsfeld themselves have both piloted military planes and so has our Defence Minister, George Fernandes. Its a lame excuse of losing shamelessly to the IAF, on part of the failed USAF pilots. In the past they even lost disgracefully to the German pilots in their Luftwaffe MiG-29s.

Like the Mach 2.3 class IAF Su-30s, the Luftwaffe MiG-29s were armed with BVRAAMs and had helmet mounted sighting, allowing their missiles to be fired along the line of sight direction, that the pilot turned his head at without turing his planes nose toward the enemy plane.
That, coupled with the Su-30s high cobra manouverability gave the IAF fighters an edge over their US counter parts. Their(IAF Su-30s) Russian made R-77 AAMs, far superior to the American AIM-120 AMRAAM missiles had active radar finders and a maximim range of 90-100 kilometers (50 km more than AMRAAM) and flying at four times the speed of sound. Finally, pitted against the IAF 'Sabre Killer' type pilots, the American pilots ultimately got their rude shock : NO CHANCE IN HELL

Aryan Pilots are always better than Cowboys Ha Ha Ha!