F-15C vs. Su-30MKI

**jgetti** · 22 Dec 04,, 19:51

Originally Posted by ajaybhutani

lets sum it up

F15C MKI
detect each other at the same time MKI shown to ahve an edge.

Cost MKI is much lower.

Combat range.:MKi is better rite??..

su30 is defnitely a newer plane tahn F15 ??
considering the fact that F15s shall not see any more developments and while MKIn program is designed to be self evolcing with each new squadron to be with newer and better parts/specs. We surely can give MKi and edge

The USAF constantly upgrades it's F-15's,, at least some of them. We have what we call the 'golden eagles',,, a group of between 200 and 300 eagles that we will keep upgraded for roughly another 25 years. We are also still producing brand new F-15's, so I believe we will be updating them for several years to come.

**jgetti** · 22 Dec 04,, 20:08

4 radar mimiced as a"mimi awacs" can be combined with .MK Detected F15 at the same time as F15C with AESA (theb best F15 in Us armoury.).detected it.MKI's will definitely perform at least that much.

Here is a column from Aviation Week and Space Technology reaffirming that the F-15C's in COPE India did NOT have the APG-63v2 AESA radar.

"The trade journal Aviation Week and Space Technology reported last month that the exercises showed the SU-30s had a
clear advantage over the F-15C in a long-range fight.

The US and Indian aircraft were seeing each other at the same time with their radars but the SU-30 pilots were able to
simulate-fire their Russian-made AA-10 "fire-and-forget" Alamo missiles first, the weekly said.

Experts say the SU-30 has a more advanced radar than the F-15C.

Hornburg said the F-15Cs that took part in "Cope India" were not equipped with the latest US active electronically
scanned array radar. "

He goes on to say:

"We are going to put new radars, as much as we can afford, in the F-16s and the F-15Es, and my prediction is we will have
to do for the F-15C as well in due course," the general said."

The APG-63v2 is also not the latest in AESA radars. There exist at least two new variants, the APG-77 and APG-79 with greatly enhanced performance. I would assume that any upgrades would use one of these new radars. Their performance characteristics are still classified.

**jgetti** · 22 Dec 04,, 20:15

Originally Posted by Franco Lolan

SU-30 MKI is the best fighter in the world right now. I am American and love F-15; however, it is a legacy airframe that is not up to the challenge. US needs to realize it might go up against a technologically equal (if not superior) enemy in regards to certain areas in combat [I'm not saying we'll be engaging India. I love the Indians, have many Indian friends]. We need to drop Red Flag exercises as a whole, new tactics and creativity, and not get caught up with the whole "war on terror" mindset (I'm not denying the US is at war against terrorism) and remember we could be facing an enemy in a convential warfare scenario.

I'm an engineer on the F-15 program, and feel you do not know enough to make such an assessment.

**Bill** · 22 Dec 04,, 22:07

"I'm an engineer on the F-15 program, and feel you do not know enough to make such an assessment."

Well i agree with you there.

**Jay** · 26 Dec 04,, 15:41

great, welcome aboard

**sw55** · 02 Jan 05,, 22:07

Originally Posted by jgetti

4 radar mimiced as a"mimi awacs" can be combined with .MK Detected F15 at the same time as F15C with AESA (theb best F15 in Us armoury.).detected it.MKI's will definitely perform at least that much.

Here is a column from Aviation Week and Space Technology reaffirming that the F-15C's in COPE India did NOT have the APG-63v2 AESA radar.

"The trade journal Aviation Week and Space Technology reported last month that the exercises showed the SU-30s had a
clear advantage over the F-15C in a long-range fight.

The US and Indian aircraft were seeing each other at the same time with their radars but the SU-30 pilots were able to
simulate-fire their Russian-made AA-10 "fire-and-forget" Alamo missiles first, the weekly said.

Experts say the SU-30 has a more advanced radar than the F-15C.

Hornburg said the F-15Cs that took part in "Cope India" were not equipped with the latest US active electronically
scanned array radar. "

He goes on to say:

"We are going to put new radars, as much as we can afford, in the F-16s and the F-15Es, and my prediction is we will have
to do for the F-15C as well in due course," the general said."

The APG-63v2 is also not the latest in AESA radars. There exist at least two new variants, the APG-77 and APG-79 with greatly enhanced performance. I would assume that any upgrades would use one of these new radars. Their performance characteristics are still classified.

I have since tossed that issue of AWST, but I believe it not only said this, that the AESA was NOT in the India excercise, but also that both aircraft saw eachother at about the same time, but the SU got off the first shot. The range rules also would start the engagement, or limit the long range engagements to only about 20 miles or so. It seems the very long range shots were negotiated away before the excercise even began. This is as I remember the article anyway, memory being the second thing to go... (or is it the third?) Only 18 aircraft in Elmendorf have the AESA, and there are three squadrons up there.

**sw55** · 02 Jan 05,, 22:17

Originally Posted by jgetti

COPE India had some seriously hidden agendas. First of all, it was much more about seeing what capabilities India had then whether or not we could beat them. The second was making the F-15 look inapt to make a case for the F/A-22 which is seriously struggling in congress (the program has been on the verge of being cut several times). USAF intentionally sent less than apt F-15's in there without the APG-63 AESA radar, no JHMCS, no AMRAAM, made them fly under restriction, and sent them up in groups of 4 against 10-14 foreign fighters. Then let the media turn it into a catastrophy like they do with everything, and voila! we've got a case to keep the F/A-22!

I'm an engineer on the F-15 in St. Louis, and trust me, that was all politics. Our best F-15C's stationed at Elmendorf AK can sustain air superiority against any threat out there.

This is the most realistic possiblility of all. I think the biggest risk to the F-15 is its material condition of the oldest units in the Pacific theatre. Not the newer Russian equipment, and the inferior pilots that would pilot them.

**Bill** · 06 Jan 05,, 10:44

The F-15C fleet is whooped to death, you're certainly right abou that.

**MIKEMUN** · 20 Feb 05,, 17:06

What about the new SUE upgrade? The SU-27 SM? Russians say that its avionics match or surpass the latest American avionics and is considered to be the most advanced Sue,including the export variants...

**ajaybhutani** · 20 Feb 05,, 17:43

Jgetti,
we can go with ur point that the real US F15 is much more advanced than what was shown. But then even indians didnt show their MKI's . They preffered to take out just the K versions which are nothing more than the mornal SU30 up for export. We still cannot just call the F15 as superior to MKi or do u mean that its superior to MKI ??

**jgetti** · 21 Feb 05,, 17:35

Originally Posted by ajaybhutani

Jgetti,
we can go with ur point that the real US F15 is much more advanced than what was shown. But then even indians didnt show their MKI's . They preffered to take out just the K versions which are nothing more than the mornal SU30 up for export. We still cannot just call the F15 as superior to MKi or do u mean that its superior to MKI ??

There's still one very important thing that everyone keeps forgetting. COPE India WAS NOT A PERFORMANCE FLYOFF!!!! It was a cooperative exercise solely for the participants to learn more about the other's aircraft and tactics. The results (though played up by the media) of high Indian victories tell us absolutely nothing about which aircraft system is superior because that was not the intent of the exercise.

COPE India was played up as a performance flyoff by the media (out of sheer ignorance and their desire to make an extravagant story out of nothing as they are prone to do to sell news), and by the Pentagon for political reasons (F/A-22). So truthfully, it doesn't matter if our best F-15's or India's best Su-30's were in COPE India or not. All they had to do was allow each airforce to improve their own tactics cooperatively. We don't want India to know everything our F-15's are capable of and I'm sure India doesn't want us to know everything about their Su-30's nor eachother's tactics. IT WAS NOT A PERFORMANCE FLYOFF, but a cooperative exercise.

That being said, USAF is allowing much of the F-15 fleet to age in leu of the arrival of F/A-22. However, USAF IS keeping a group of about 300 of our F-15's updated with the latest and greatest. I have a hard time believing that the west doesn't have an advantage when it comes to avionics quality/capability. So to answer your question, yes, I think that the F-15 is capable of maintaining air superiority even over the Su-30 MKI. And if the Pentagon cuts back on F/A-22 buy as they are talking about,, even more F-15's will be kept at the cutting edge,, possibly even more purchased.

**Dima** · 22 Feb 05,, 00:22

well, if it just was a cooperative excercise, then we'll have to wait for the excercise betweeen the Indian air force and the Israeli air force sometime this year, anyone got any information on this?

**highsea** · 22 Feb 05,, 01:11

Originally Posted by jgetti

There's still one very important thing that everyone keeps forgetting. COPE India WAS NOT A PERFORMANCE FLYOFF!!!! It was a cooperative exercise solely for the participants to learn more about the other's aircraft and tactics. The results (though played up by the media) of high Indian victories tell us absolutely nothing about which aircraft system is superior because that was not the intent of the exercise.

I have found it's a waste of time to try to explain DACT to people who don't want to understand it. But the other day I was thinking about Cope India- it would have been simple enough to change the tail numbers and send AESA equipped AC, but simulate them as standard passive phased array. So when the SU-30's came in range, you just focus a few elements and blast their RWR's and give yourself away. Oh! You caught me! I'm dead!!!

Lol...In the meantime, you are using the AESA to fingerprint the SU-30's and the weapons at all aspects! Would we really give away such a great opportunity to get the data? They would never know we were doing it.

**Dima** · 22 Feb 05,, 01:43

can you explain to me what fingerprinting is in the context that you were writing it in, what did you mean, blast their RWR's?

and i have heard reports that the AESA can sound out "bursts" of waves that can knock off a missile such as the R-27R etc. one's guided by enemy radars, is this true?

**ajaybhutani** · 22 Feb 05,, 06:00

Originally Posted by highsea

I have found it's a waste of time to try to explain DACT to people who don't want to understand it. But the other day I was thinking about Cope India- it would have been simple enough to change the tail numbers and send AESA equipped AC, but simulate them as standard passive phased array. So when the SU-30's came in range, you just focus a few elements and blast their RWR's and give yourself away. Oh! You caught me! I'm dead!!!

Lol...In the meantime, you are using the AESA to fingerprint the SU-30's and the weapons at all aspects! Would we really give away such a great opportunity to get the data? They would never know we were doing it.

Well i doubt if indians wont know that u were using phased array sim for the AESA radar.Morevoer if Us manages to do it . Still a lot of people would know it ( in the american circles ) and it wouldnt take time for the thing to spread up before or after the exercise in the secret service circles of various countries including india and US will then never get a chance to see the Exercises with Upgraded MKI's. Or even the next ones like PAK-FA or LCA as it will be more like breaching the mutual trust.