TUSAS1

Thats misleading....the numbers should be like this...I'll edit my post to reflect this:

1000+ M60
3000 M48 (600 upgraded to M60A1, 750 upgraded to M60A3, the rest in storage)

Ucar

Dear Tusas

I am joining this discussion only because I was invited by you and fellow members. I had a very nasty experience in the past when I disagreed with a countrymen, and was called "a disgrace" because I did not support all of our country's policies. I hope it will not be repeated this time.

1 - I think the inclusion of TAF in this discussion is flawed, since Turkey identifies itself as a European Country. Therefore, TAF should not be included in this comparison. It was already evaluated under the Top X AFs of Europe thread.

2 - Turkish Armed Forces has a mixed and complicated procurement, and systems distribution policy/organization. The Armed Forces' threat perception, reality and procurement policies until today has not been consistent with each other.
Here are some examples :
Turkey has faced active combat since early 1980s. As of today, Turkish troops are still on the ground without combat vests.
Turkey has faced active combat since early 1980s. As of today, Turkish troops are still on the ground without waterproof footwear.
Turkey has been facing IED and mines since 1980s. Mine protected vehicles for combat troops are still unavailable.
Turkey has possesed UAVs since 1996. As of 3 months ago, Turkey was unable to provide realtime intelligence to its combat troops.
I can easily state a lot more off the top of my head.

3 - Turkish Land Forces training regime is outdated, inflexible, and not corresponding to battlefield realities. Our recruits receive very poor initial training. As a result, we are forces to rely on NCOs heavily, and active troops are recycled very fast. We have not been able to employ effective and continued combat experience on the battlefield as a result. Our operations return mixed results. Today we have battlefield superiority, but not battlefield supremacy against the PKK after 25 years of combat. Our use of modern combat equipment is mismatched with our training.

4 - It is true that Turkish Armed Forces was able to spend a lot of resources on procurement and modernization. The effectiveness of new/modernized systems, by which these policies need to be evaluated, is very surprising and sobering.

5 - The primary problem of Turkish Armed Forces is system integration, and system employment. We are facing serious difficulties in introduction and use of new systems in all branches of the armed forces.

Shortly, what we purchase, we have modest to serious difficulties in using in active combat. Usually, they will not be available to combat units. Moreover, what we purchase is mostly not intended to face what we are doing. Therefore, the utility of systems procurement in the current sense is questionable.

This is why OoE is referring to most of our procurement items as "toys". They look fancy in pictures, but they have "0" (zero) utility in Turkish combat reality.

And Blademaster, as for walking more than riding, it was the result of broken axles, blown tires, and terrain not allowing vehicle movement.

TUSAS1

Thank you for the first hand insight Ucar. Just afew questions:

(1) Afew months ago a Turkish TV channel was collecting money in order to purchase vests for the Soldiers fighting in Anatolia. The following day this campaign commenced, the Chief of the General Staff stated: We do not need these vests as we have more than enough in stock and also posses a production plant for this purpose. Hence, I also still don't understand why our soldiers are not wearing them? Could it be the weight?
(2) Just today I read somewhere that the Turkish uniforms will be changed completely. Apparently, they will be digital prints which you cannot see from space and they will have some anti-radiation properties. I will try and post a link for you.
(3) There is currently also talk of more professional soldiers. Hence, the 20% downsizing...What are your views?

In addition to this what is your ideas for the future? Are these issues being addressed or thrown under the carpet? I am awaiting you valuable insight.

Officer of Engineers

All right, so you realize right now that your posts meant absolutely squat all. Despite your cheerleading, the Turks have real problems. However, I am extremely dismay that you're not seeing what the good Captain is telling you. Despite the disadvantages, the Turks are getting the job done. The professionalism is there, even if the equipment is not.

I am dismayed that you still continue to ask about the quality of the kit instead of the quality of the man.

As to your questions,

1) What does the regular Turkish combat soldier think? I mean, really, have you try to find out. Is the protection worth the extra weight they have to carry ... and why can't you think of this question?

2) So tell me what is the difference between this pattern and pokey dots after 3 days rolling in the dirt?

3) The Turks lost a real good Officer in UCar when he retired. Does that answer your question?

__________________
Chimo

Big K

Ucar,

so everything comes to an end with the "Human resources" right?...

i mean you can have the equipment but if you can not have the operator theres no combat value...

btw,

as ex-recruit(not been in a combat), i clearly and sadly agree with Ucar...my unit was not a combat unit but,

i remember my basic training....yes....theres a better basic training in the game of "Call of Duty"...a normal recruit during his basics shots 12 rounds if hes lucky...me i shot 9 rounds with a G-3 from 1975

my brother was at a border division....they were called themselves as "border eagles" heheh but my bro and his mates were calling themselves as "border grubs"

but please dont forget that many PKK terrorists have their basics in the Turkish Army...by saying this i mean that when we have to judge Turkish Army and defence politics we have to realize the very special statue of Turkey in every manner...

__________________
When i say, there will be no effect but i am not willing to remain silent.
-Fuzuli

Big K

one of my friends father is working for a army contractor textile company and they have a lot of good stuff at hand which they also export to many western armies... the anti-radiation stuff and other interesting stuff like anti-infrared clothes are existing but i think the problem is money...

what is a pokey dot sir?

Officer of Engineers

Big colourful circles that children often draw.

TUSAS1

I think the Military establishment has become aware of this thanks to their NATO partners and we are seeing changes being made to both the structure and training. The Chief of the General Staffs press statements in this regard also support this. They have realised that having 1 million soldiers does not matter when they are poorly trained or lack the technology.

Ucar

Dear Big K

You are highly accurate in your assesment. We are forced to rely on recruits with a very low degree of prior training. Moreover, the distribution of modern equipment, and the personnel traned in their use is very limited. The living standards of our NCOs, and the social disparities between the officers corps, and the remaining personnel is creating serious frictions.

What happens is, we have to "untrain" recruits and fresh NCOs first, then train them again, all the while having to endure lacking personnel in combat sweeps and patrolling, because on paper the personnel allocation is at 100%. Since we lose a whole class of recruits every 3 months after having them for 3-9 months, this places a heavy burden on personnel who has to conduct training as well as combat duties.

PKK on the other hand, has a very experienced core personnel who are not rotated unless eliminated. In a tactical sense, they have more experience per unit leader when compared to the Turkish Armed Forces. Their advantage is terrain, and mobility. We on the other hand, rely on airmobile tactics, and heavy firepower whenever we can fix them in place.

The new transition to a 100% proffesional unit creation will result in the combination of our current abilities with greater mobility. This will hopefully improve reaction times, and shock ability.

Ucar

1 - I am certain that our Chief of Staff has stated complete truth. However, the issue is not whether we have them or not; it is an issue of availability and distribution. They are usually not available to combat units. As for weight, our soldiers on the average start with 35-40 kg of equipment. I am sure a significant number would accept to lose 5-6 kg of this weight, and sacrifice some comfort in exchange for greater protection given the choice.

2 - What defines a good unifom is keeping the cold out, keeping the warmth in, and forcing the sweat out. If this new uniform will do these, congratulations to the designers. Our primary enemy does not spot us from space, or via air surveillance, nor do they employ radiation weapons in combat. As I stated before, equipping as you expect to fight/according to how you fight needs more focus in equipment procurement procedures.

3 - I have stated them in my prior posts. The more people stay in one place, do what they do constantly, and enhance team integration, the better the outcome.

gunnut

Were you conscripted or were you a volunteer?

That's it? Nine whole rounds? How can anyone be proficient with only 9 rounds of practice on a rifle?

__________________
"Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

Big K

i was conscripted in 12 april 2004.

i was a gendarmerie and yes only 9 whole rounds including the aiming training and a run(1km)&shot exercise.

and i was in service only 6 months! btw, once my commanding NCO got angered to me because of my -extra-shiny boots..... i was using a special boot wax which shines 2 times more than the rest of squad

my brother was regular infantry and he had a lot more than me as combat training.

but if i am not wrong theres some commando units and their training is much more intense...

Sumku

Are we still oncourse as concerns this Thread?

TUSAS1

Well we were talking about the 650 Combat aircraft and 750 Helicopeters the Turkish Air Force will be acquiring under the $160 billion modernization plans, however, the forum somehow shifted into describing the deficiencies in the Turkish Land Forces.....

Sumku

Correct, so lets get back on Track