Top 5 Airforces Of Asia - Page 7

Deltacamelately · 04-24-2008, 07:58 AM

Turkey is not in Asia. It is considered to be an European Country.

TUSAS1 · 04-28-2008, 00:25 AM

Actually, Turkey is a Euro-Asian country. Thus, it is both European and Asia. In fact, Turkey is a partner in many Asian organisations as well. For Example, it is a Full member of the Asia-Pacific Space Cooperation Organization (APSCO)Turkey Signs Up For Asia-Pacific Space Program

Thus, Turkey is definately in this race and I would rank it as having the 3rd best Air Force in Asia.

240 F-16 CCIP,
170 F-4 Terminator 2020,
100 F-35 (Delivery commences in 2010),
150 Unknown 5th Generation Fighter approved (possibly Eurofighter consortium in Trache 3)
6 B737 MESA AWACS,
7 KC-135 Tankers

This is just a summary, I posted a detailed link previously.

kuku · 04-28-2008, 00:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TUSAS1

Actually, Turkey is a Euro-Asian country. Thus, it is both European and Asia. In fact, Turkey is a partner in many Asian organisations as well. For Example, it is a Full member of the Asia-Pacific Space Cooperation Organization (APSCO)Turkey Signs Up For Asia-Pacific Space Program

Thus, Turkey is definately in this race and I would rank it as having the 3rd best Air Force in Asia.

240 F-16 CCIP,
170 F-4 Terminator 2020,
100 F-35 (Delivery commences in 2010),
150 Unknown 5th Generation Fighter approved (possibly Eurofighter consortium in Trache 3)
6 B737 MESA AWACS,
7 KC-135 Tankers

This is just a summary, I posted a detailed link previously.

Really F-35 coming to town in 2010, or is it 2020?

With 100 F-35 and 150 EF typhoon, F-16s, 737 MESA, 135 tankers turkey would certainly be a very capable AF, however will they be a EU/NATO force by the time all of this hardware is in?

TUSAS1 · 04-28-2008, 00:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kuku

Really F-35 coming to town in 2010, or is it 2020?

See this post Turkey to receive JSF much earlier than expected!

Furthermore, the 7 KC-135 Tankers, 240 F-16, 2 B737-MESA AWACS are already in the inventory. The 4 other MESA AWACS will enter into service before 2010, together with the F-35. Thus, the TuAF is already a very capable force. Its just that it will be much more capable post 2010.

The Turkish Minister of Defence has announced that the F-35 will be flying in the Turkish Air Force by 2010. Turkish Aircraft Industries has already commenced production of the F-35. In fact, they are also producing 400 F-35 fuselages for the US Air Force. Turkey will be the second country to incorporate the JSF into its Air Force before 2011 after the US

Quote:

Northrop Grumman Authorizes International Suppliers to Begin Work On First Phase of F-35 Low Rate Initial Production
Awards to Danish, Turkish Firms Add Momentum to Long-term Agreements Signed in 2005

EL SEGUNDO, Calif., Dec. 6, 2007 (PRIME NEWSWIRE) -- Northrop Grumman Corporation (NYSE:NOC) has authorized Terma, Lystrup, Denmark and Turkish Aerospace Industries, Inc. (TAI), Ankara, Turkey to begin fabricating subassemblies for the first two F-35 Lightning II production aircraft.

The awards, which expand the international membership of Northrop Grumman's F-35 supplier team, represent the first F-35 contracts for Terma and TAI under long-term agreements signed with the company in 2005.

The subassemblies to be produced -- composite components and aircraft access doors -- will be used in the F-35 center fuselage, a major section of the aircraft being produced by Northrop Grumman as a principal and founding member of the Lockheed Martin-led F-35 global industry team.

"Strong international participation in the F-35 program is critical to ensuring the successful production, delivery and sustainment of the world's most advanced multi-role combat aircraft," said Janis Pamiljans, vice president and F-35 program manager for Northrop Grumman's Integrated Systems sector. "These agreements add significant momentum to our very successful partnerships with Turkey and Denmark for the production of critical F-35 subassemblies."

According to Pamiljans, Terma and TAI will each serve as a second source supplier to Northrop Grumman during F-35 low rate initial production (LRIP). Under the current authorization, they will begin producing aircraft parts required for the initial phase, known as LRIP-1.

In late October, Northrop Grumman officially began LRIP-1 for the F-35 program by starting the fabrication of the first single-piece, all-composite inlet duct for the Air Force's first production F-35 aircraft. That duct is now being produced at Northrop Grumman's composites manufacturing center in El Segundo, Calif.

In February 2007, Northrop Grumman signed a letter of intent with TAI to also make the Turkish company a second source for producing F-35 center fuselages. Under that agreement, TAI will produce a minimum of 400 center fuselages starting in LRIP-2. Northrop Grumman currently produces all F-35 center fuselages at its F-35 assembly facility in Palmdale, Calif.

The F-35 Lightning II is a stealthy, supersonic multi-role fighter designed to replace a wide range of aging fighter and strike aircraft. It is being produced in three variants -- conventional take-off and landing (CTOL), short take-off/vertical landing (STOVL) and a carrier variant (CV) -- to meet the diverse performance needs of the U.S. Air Force, the U.S. Marine Corps, the U.S. Navy and allied defense forces worldwide. The three variants use a high degree of commonality to meet strict affordability requirements.

Northrop Grumman's roles on the F-35 team include producing the aircraft's center fuselage, key radar and electro-optical subsystems, and the aircraft's communication, navigation and identification avionics. It also provides mission systems and mission-planning software; and develops pilot and maintenance training systems.

Northrop Grumman Corporation is a $30 billion global defense and technology company whose 120,000 employees provide innovative systems, products, and solutions in information and services, electronics, aerospace and shipbuilding to government and commercial customers worldwide.

CONTACT: Brooks McKinney, APR
Northrop Grumman Integrated Systems
(310) 331-6610
Mobile: (310) 864-3785
brooks.mckinney@ngc.com

Ken Beedle (London)
Northrop Grumman Integrated Systems
+44 0207 747 1910
+44 07787 174092
Ken.beedle@euro.ngc.com

Quote:

ANKARA, Turkey – 10. December, 2007 – Turkish Aerospace Industries, Inc. (TAI) has been authorized by Northrop Grumman Corporation to begin fabricating subassemblies for the first two F-35 production aircraft. The authorization represents the first F-35 contract received by TAI under a long term agreement signed with Northrop Grumman in 2005.
The subassemblies – composite components and aircraft access doors – will be used in the F-35 center fuselage, a major section of the aircraft being produced by Northrop Grumman, a principal member of the Lockheed Martin-led F-35 global industry team.

“In order to meet and support the requirements of the F-35 program, we have been making significant investments both for the new technologies and facilities” said Muharrem Dortkasli, general manager for TAI. “This agreement, which will last for at least 20 years, is a very important milestone for the strong and strategic partnership between Northrop Grumman and TAI.”
“Strong international participation in the F-35 program is critical to ensuring the successful production, delivery and sustainment of the world’s most advanced multi-role combat aircraft,” said Janis Pamiljans, vice president and F-35 program manager for Northrop Grumman’s Integrated Systems sector. “This agreement adds significant momentum to our very successful partnership with TAI for the production of critical F-35 subassemblies.”
According to Muharrem Dortkasli, “TAI will each serve as a second source supplier to Northrop Grumman during F-35 low rate initial production (LRIP). It will begin producing aircraft parts required for the initial phase, known as LRIP-1 and will procure the raw materials required to produce parts for LRIP-2. TAI has been selected as the only source located outside of USA for the F-35 Lightning II CTOL Center Fuselages. Deliveries of Center Fuselages will start in 2013 and continue during the full production phase.”
The F-35 Lightning II is a stealthy, supersonic multi-role fighter designed to replace a wide range of aging fighter and strike aircraft. It is being produced in three variants – conventional take-off and landing (CTOL), short take-off/vertical landing (STOVL) and a carrier variant (CV) – to meet the diverse performance needs of the U.S. Air Force, the U.S. Marine Corps, the U.S. Navy and allied defense forces worldwide. The three variants use a high degree of commonality to meet strict affordability requirements.
TAI’s modern aircraft facilities, located in Ankara-Turkey, are furnished with high technology machinery and equipment that provide extensive manufacturing capabilities ranging from parts manufacturing to aircraft assembly and flight tests. TAI also designs, develops and integrates aerospace systems and provides modernization and after sales support services.

Quote:

In February 2007, Northrop Grumman signed a letter of intent with TAI to also make it a second source for producing F-35 center fuselages. Under that agreement, TAI will produce a minimum of 400 center fuselages starting during LRIP-2. Northrop Grumman currently produces all F-35 center fuselages at its F-35 assembly facility in Palmdale, Calif.
Northrop Grumman’s roles on the F-35 team include producing the aircraft’s center fuselage, key radar and electro-optical subsystems, and the aircraft’s communication, navigation and identification avionics. It also provides mission systems and mission-planning software; and develops pilot and maintenance training systems.
Northrop Grumman Corporation is a $30 billion global defense and technology company whose 120,000 employees provide innovative systems, products, and solutions in information and services, electronics, aerospace and shipbuilding to government and commercial customers worldwide.

Sumku · 04-28-2008, 15:00 PM

Thats Impressive. Good for Turkey.

Though I still have reservations on whether we can actually Count Turkey as amongst the Top-5 Airforce's in Asia[if we were to assume that Turkey is part of Asia].

I guess no. Yeah, you might field an F-35 a good 3-4 years before other Forces, however F-35 is not the end-all-be-all of everything.

Qualitative Superiority is one thing and Numerical Superiority is other and both have their own pros and cons. How many F-35's are you going to fleld anyways. From how many Airfields are they going to operate. What Solid Air Defense have you in place?

Besides Training is another aspect we cant forget. Also economically,how strong are you.

Do you really think that Turkish AirForce would come as a winner when compared to China? I guess no.

F-35 is not everything. In a real war like situation, probably Russia,China and India can quickly put a lot more 4.5 Gen A/C's in air than Turkey can field F-35's.

Qualitative Superiority has advanages only in a Ratio of lets say 1:3 or at the max 1:5 and definitely not 1:20.

5-6 Jag's can easily take out an F-35. So again the Question "How many F-35's Turkey would field/make".How many BVR missiles you have. China has tons of them and so has Russia.

Turkey's Air Force is Impressive and would give a clear shot over Iran, but still no place amongst Top-5 in Asia.

Sumku · 04-28-2008, 15:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TUSAS1

I think this is a significant force...don't you reckon? And by the way....the above acquisitions etc were decided before the decision for the $160 billion (no mistake) overhaul of the Turkish Armed Forces (TAF). The new strategy of the TAF is to reduce the Man power but add the high technology and increase the ability for rapid deployment.

Thats a Shitload of Money[atleast on the face of it]. But its to be distributed across how many years?. I guess Turkish economy would not be able to allocate that entire Sum of Money in immediate few years. I guess that its a long range allocation to be used over nothing less than 40-50 years.

Mind you that its the money that is going to Modernize the Turkish Armed Forces, which means the defence budget would be extra. Make me wise if I am wrong.

Gun Grape · 04-28-2008, 20:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sumku

Thats a Shitload of Money[atleast on the face of it]. But its to be distributed across how many years?. I guess Turkish economy would not be able to allocate that entire Sum of Money in immediate few years. I guess that its a long range allocation to be used over nothing less than 40-50 years.

Mind you that its the money that is going to Modernize the Turkish Armed Forces, which means the defence budget would be extra. Make me wise if I am wrong.

Thats only about 10% of the projected 2008 GDP. Maybe 5-10yrs is realistic. Depends on what other programs they want to build in the defense budget It won't take 40 yrs.

Sumku · 04-28-2008, 21:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gun Grape

Thats only about 10% of the projected 2008 GDP. Maybe 5-10yrs is realistic. Depends on what other programs they want to build in the defense budget It won't take 40 yrs.

Please do some calculations. We are not talking about $60Billion, but $160Billions. Have a look at the below table

Total Overlay Number of Years Billions/Year
160 5 32.00
160 10 16.00
160 15 10.67
160 20 8.00
160 25 6.40
160 30 5.33
160 35 4.57
160 40 4.00
160 45 3.56
160 50 3.20
160 55 2.91
160 60 2.67
160 65 2.46
Note: If you have issues getting the table properly, then scroll down to see attached Image for better comprehension.

Now look carefully under the Column Billions/Year. If they are spending $160Billions, then to be able to achive this they would need to invest something like $2.46Billion per year for 65 Years. If as you say they would want to do this in within lets say 10 years, then they would need to spend about $16Billions every year for next 10 years. Even China is not investing in Military at that pace.

To me investing about $3Billion is quite possible but can hardly be called a Major Defense Preparedness exercise.

And this is something outside of their Defence Budget. Now tell me which country other than US has that kind of Funds available?

If the $160Billion is inclusive of their Defence Budget then this is an entirely a different story and is possible also but then this could hardly be called a Worthwhile exercise towards Major Defence Upgradation.

For 10years,spending $16Billion Plus Defence Budget is also possible but then it would make then a very military society with practically nothing left to invest in Internal economy. And that also means that other countries of the region see what would be coming in 10 years and would also increase their defense budget and thereby making the whole region highly unstable.[Oil prices would then start to head south

].

Either that or Turkey or talks about Turkey investing $160Billions on defense preparedness is a joke[I however am still to check the authenticity of the claims in Non-Turkey media].

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gun Grape

Thats only about 10% of the projected 2008 GDP. Maybe 5-10yrs is realistic.

Are you seriously stating that Turkey would spend about 2.5% of GDP on just defense preparedness+Normal Military Budget[Overall somewhere around 6-7% of GDP on defense preparedness]? I seriously dont think so.

I might be wrong,please make me wise by putting even stronger argument based on Facts and not just assumptions.

Note: For better representation, I have attached a file:Comparison Chart.jpg

Gun Grape · 04-28-2008, 23:38 PM

During the 80s and 90s Turkeys defense budget hovered between 4-6% of their GDP.

The question that has to be asked is, How relevant do you want your military to be? If you really want the AF that Turkey plans on, or the US , then you make sacrifices in other places.

From the USAF perspective. Want to pay for those extra F-22s that you want to buy? Might have to retire the 117s a little early and live with a small gap in your bag of tricks. And you cut people. You also get with the other services
and see what programs they might be willing to sacrifice to be covered by an "A" team Air Force.

Maybe Turkey puts the F-5s and F-4s in the bone yard, and cut the personnel that had F-4/5 skills and invest that money towards the goal that they have set.

TUSAS1 · 04-29-2008, 00:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sumku

Thats Impressive. Good for Turkey.

Though I still have reservations on whether we can actually Count Turkey as amongst the Top-5 Airforce's in Asia[if we were to assume that Turkey is part of Asia].

I guess no. Yeah, you might field an F-35 a good 3-4 years before other Forces, however F-35 is not the end-all-be-all of everything. I am not saying the F-35 is the end-all-be-all of everything. But do not forget the JSF project is the product of 8 countries industries joining forces and the pouring of $260 billion. It will be a very capable plane for at least 25 years.

Qualitative Superiority is one thing and Numerical Superiority is other and both have their own pros and cons. How many F-35's are you going to fleld anyways. From how many Airfields are they going to operate. What Solid Air Defense have you in place? Turkey has put a firm order for 100 F-35C, (there is talk of increasing this number to 150) There are in excess of 120 Military Airfields in Turkey. Turkey also maintain bases in Albania, Azeribeijan and the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus.

Besides Training is another aspect we can't forget. Also economically,how strong are you. Honestly, I think you have no information or idea about Turkey or the Turkish Air Force. Please read up on Turkey before you give an opinion on it. Turkey is not one of NATO's most important countries for no reason.

Do you really think that Turkish AirForce would come as a winner when compared to China? I did not assert this...however, I do believe that for SOME missions the TuAF is better equipped than China.

F-35 is not everything. In a real war like situation, probably Russia,China and India can quickly put a lot more 4.5 Gen A/C's in air than Turkey can field F-35's. Again you are forgeting or a ill-imformed about the fact that Turkey has been producing F-16's under licence from Lockheed Martin for over 20 years now. Do you really believe during war, Turkey is going to sit back and listen to licencing agreements? For gods sake, Turkey is producing the F-35 under licence as well. During war, it will manufacture at full capacity! Don't forget 400 of the US Air Forces F-35 will be built by Turkish Aircraft Industries due to the significant cost reduction

Qualitative Superiority has advanages only in a Ratio of lets say 1:3 or at the max 1:5 and definitely not 1:20. The Turkish Air Force both has the numbers and the quality. 170 4 generation (F-4 Terminator 2020), 240- 4.5 generation aircraft (F-16 CCIP), 100- JSF + 150- unknown fith generation aircraft is a sizeable modern force.

5-6 Jag's can easily take out an F-35. So again the Question "How many F-35's Turkey would field/make".How many BVR missiles you have. China has tons of them and so has Russia.

Turkey's Air Force is Impressive and would give a clear shot over Iran, but still no place amongst Top-5 in Asia. I think you need to revise this. If the Turkish Air Force is easily in the top 2 in Europe it is easily in the top 5 of Asia!

Regarding the Turkish Armed Forces Economics/Funding/Modernization

Heres what the US Central Intelligence Agency says about the Turkish Armed Forces

Quote:

a "National Security Policy Document" adopted in October 2005 increases the Turkish Armed Forces (TSK) role in internal security, augmenting the General Directorate of Security and Gendarmerie General Command (Jandarma); the TSK leadership continues to play a key role in politics and considers itself guardian of Turkey's secular state; in April 2007, it warned the ruling party about any pro-Islamic appointments; despite on-going negotiations on EU accession since October 2005, progress has been limited in establishing required civilian supremacy over the military; primary domestic threats are listed as fundamentalism (with the definition in some dispute with the civilian government), separatism (the Kurdish problem), and the extreme left wing; Ankara strongly opposed establishment of an autonomous Kurdish region; an overhaul of the Turkish Land Forces Command (TLFC) taking place under the "Force 2014" program is to produce 20-30% smaller, more highly trained forces characterized by greater mobility and firepower and capable of joint and combined operations; the TLFC has taken on increasing international peacekeeping responsibilities, and took charge of a NATO International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) command in Afghanistan in April 2007; the Turkish Navy is a regional naval power that wants to develop the capability to project power beyond Turkey's coastal waters; the Navy is heavily involved in NATO, multinational, and UN operations; its roles include control of territorial waters and security for sea lines of communications; the Turkish Air Force adopted an "Aerospace and Missile Defense Concept" in 2002 and has initiated project work on an integrated missile defense system; Air Force priorities include attaining a modern deployable, survivable, and sustainable force structure, and establishing a sustainable command and control system (2008)
Reference: https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat...k/geos/tu.html

Regarding the $160 billion modernization

Turkey has allocated a budget of $150 billion for modernization. This sum will be spent over a period of 30 years (which commenced in 1997) and is to be used for acquisition of idegenous Frigates, Tanks, Missile Defence Systems etc only. This budget is exclusive of the yearly military budget which is officially stated as 5.7% of GDP. The following must also be taken into consideration:

THIS BUDGET WAS CALCULATED AND ALOCATED DURING THE ECONOMIC CRISIS TURKEY FACED AND DURING WHEN THE GDP WAS AROUND $400 BILLION. TODAY, TURKEY IS A CANDIDATE COUNTRY FOR EU MEMBERSHIP AND ITS GDP (PPP) IS $980 BILLION. IT WILL EXCEED $ 1 TRILLION NEXT YEAR ACCORDING TO IMF AND WORLD BANK OFFICIALS.

ADD TO THIS:

The fact that the Turkish Armed forces also owns majority shares in several of Turkey's largest Corporations. These collectively bring an extra $10 billion of income per year to the Armed Forces. These companies include: ASELSAN, HAVELSAN, ROKETSAN, MKEK, several Turkish lottery companies and some oil exploration companies operating in Azerbeijan and Northern Iraq.

For very detailed information about the Economics of the Turkish Armed Forces I draw your attention to the following documents from very reputable American sources:

Quote:

Introduction
"The Political Economy of Turkish Military Modernization" by Dr. Elliot Hen-Tov
This study examines the political economy of the military modernization project begun in 1996 in Turkey. Due to the unprecedented scope of the modernization effort and the particularities of the defense industry, this project will impact both Turkey's relations with its allies as well as its democratization process. The large purchases of military technology and the expected professionalization of the Turkish military will lead to an enhancement in Turkey's international stature, especially in its relationship with Western supplier states. Simultaneously, the modernization will produce domestic social forces that facilitate further democratization. Reference: Turkish Military Modernization

See also The Military in Modern Turkey

Opinion Paper: "Turkey’s Quest to Modernize Remains on Track"

Turkey Military

You also mentioned that you would like to see non-Turkish sources. Well, please refer to my second post after this one. I have attached references from the US Navy, outlining some of the projects where the $160 billion is being spent on. I must inform you that after the new Economic situation, Turkey has added more National Frigates and MBT's to the list. TCG Heybeliada, a MILGEM corvette will be launched this September.
__________________________________________________ ___________________________________

Regarding the Turkish Air Forces other Assets, viz Air Defence Systems
You mentioned earlier in your post that Combat Aircraft are not the only determinant of Air power. Well you were right. Below is a non-exhaustive list of all the other Turkish Air Force Assets for your perusal.

TRANSPORT FORCE

7 x C-130E Hercules (being extensively modernised with Full Glass Cockpits etc)
6 x C-130B Hercules (with ELINT/SIGINT equipment)
19 x C-160T Transall
50 x CN 235-100M
10 x Airbus A-400M (Firm Order)

UNMANNED AERIAL INVENTORY

20 x TIHA MALE Attack/Surveillance (Indigenous UAV similar to US Predator, TIHA-B armed with 4 laser guided missiles) (800 km)
40 x Heron MALE Attack/Surveillance UAV (1000/3300 km)
107 x Harpy Attack UAV (500 km)
2 I x GNAT Surveillance UAV (500 km)

HELICOPTER INVENTORY

20 x AS 532UL Cougar Mk1 (14 SAR + 6 CSAR)
81 x Bell UH-1H Iroquois (SAR/ECM/Utility)- To be modernized
45 x UNKNOWN HEAVY LIFT (Negotiations for the co-production of a heavy lift helicopter such as the Chinook still continuing).

TRAINING AIRCRAFT INVENTORY

69 x T-38A Talon (received structural upgrade, to be modernized)
61 x Cessna T-37B/C (received structural upgrade)
38 x Aermacchi SF-260D
26 x T-41D Mescalero
0 x KAI KT-1 (40 on order to replace T-37s)

Also, currently the development of both Turbo-prop and Turbo-fan engine trainer aircraft are continuing at Turkish Aerospace Industries. It is planned that they will enter service in 2012.

TuAF Air Defense Force

Long Range/High altitute

72 Nike Hercules(about to be retired

Patriot/S-300/S-400- There is currently in negotiations with Russian and US companies for an anti-balistic missile defence shield (It will consist of a minimum of 4 systems). Russia is the favoured as they have offered co-production and tech-transfer. See Russia offers Turkey upgraded, longer-range S-300s Papandreou: Greece is ready to discuss everything with Turkey that doesn't affect its sovereignty P - Turkish Daily News Mar 04, 2000

After the off-the-shelf initial order of 4 systems, Turkey will then commence the development of an indegenous system in conjunction with a foreign partner. There is a requirement of an extra indegenous 8 systems.

A next generation Very-High Altitude Anti-Balistic weapons system web- to be co-produced by the Boeing and Havelsan of Turkey team. It will be used by the US, Turkey and NATO. (see Boeing and Havelsan of Turkey join forces to develop new missile defence shield....

Medium Range/Altitute
24 I-HAWK-PIP3 launchers with MPQ-64 Sentinel Radars/Konsberg Fire Control Centers

Indigenous system in development by ASELSAN of Turkey

Low Altitute/Short Range
80 x Rapier Lauchers/37 Blindfire Fire Control radars upgraded to B1X version, new 800 Rapier Mk-2 missiles started to be assembled in Turkey.

32 x Aselsan of Turkey KMS, each carries 4 ready to fire Stingers-RPM and 12.7mm machine gun for close range...

35mm/40mm short range AA guns supported by D-XI Radar/FLIR weapon control platforms...

Turkish Military Space Program

I do not want to digress from the main topic, however Turkey also has a very active space program. The program includes but is not limited to, the acquisition of a 0.8cm resolution Recon. Satelite (Project Gokturk-1) for use by the Turkish Armed Forces and a 2m resolution Recon Satelite (Project Gokturk-2) for use by the Turkish National Intelligence Organisation. Gokturk-2 is currently being produced by Turkish Aerospace Industries. Gokturk-1 is in the tender stages. The electro optical parts required for the Gokturk-1 (0.8m resolution) are beyond the technological knowhow of Turkish Aerospace Industries, thus a foreign partner is being sought. The strongest contenders in the tender are EADS-Astrium and Elenia.

For further information please refer to the following (some a Turkish Government sources):

Turkey moves towards setting up costly sapece programs.** (Turkish Daily News* Gazetesi/30.05.2001)

Turkish Satellite Project Attracts Global Interest

TÜBÝTAK UZAY Space Technologies Research Institute - Uzay Teknolojileri Araþtýrma Enstitüsü +90 312 210 1310

Turkey Signs Up For Asia-Pacific Space Program

» Israel may sell Turkey an Ofek spy satellite in a $300m deal NoisyRoom.net: Courage is the price that Life exacts for granting peace. Amelia Earhart

Israel's Barak visits Turkey to discuss spy satellite sales - Topix

TUSAS1 · 04-29-2008, 03:01 AM

And heres what the US Navy says about the Turkish Armed Forces:

Quoted From Pages 113 to 140 (References are ommited)
“TURKEY’S RESPONSE TO THREATS OF WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION”
United States Navy
NAVAL POSTGRADUATE SCHOOL
Monterey, California

http://www.nps.edu/academics/sigs/ns...heses/Al01.pdf

by
Guray Al
December 2001
Thesis Advisor: Peter R. Lavoy
Second Reader: David S. Yost

Quote:

C. FUTURE CAPABILITIES AND PROCUREMENT PLANS

1. Air Force

Recently, the Turkish air force has undergone great advancements. In this regard, some $45 billion has been earmarked for the air force under Turkey’s 25-year modernization program. Turkey’s procurement plans include electronic warfare systems, command control communication and intelligence (C³I) systems, air-launched precision guided weapons and air defense missiles. The air force has been increasing its holding of F-16 fighters and the co-production of a first batch of 240 aircraft has been completed in two phases of 160 and 80 aircraft. The airforce is also planning to procure 145 attack helicopters with an initial order of 50 from Bell Helicopter Textron King Cobra AH-1Z Company to fulfill Turkey’s attack helicopter requirements. The purchase of attack helicopters might be aimed at hunting Syrian Scud missile launchers in northern and central Syria and the mobile missile launchers in Iraq. Meanwhile, under the “Vision-2005” document, the Turkish Armed Forces plan to add the 5th generation Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) to its inventory. This will replace its current fleet of F-16C/D multimission aircraft by the end of 2015. Moreover, Turkey is participating in the engineering and manufacturing development (EMD) stage of the program at a cost of $1 billion. The Turkish air force also expressed interest in acquiring up to 40 US-made F-15E Strike Eagle fighters. A five-year modernization agreement with Israeli Aircraft Industries to upgrade Turkey’s 54 F-4E aircraft is also among the procurement plans.
Israeli air force has already delivered eight of 54 modernized F-4E Phantoms, elevating them to the Phantom 2000 standard. These aircraft are configured to carry Popeye precision-guided stand-off missiles.

In order to boost the capabilities of the air force, the Turkish government decided to make a major acquisition of tanker aircraft that would increase the flight range of the Turkish air force (TUAF)’s F-16 and F-4 fighter aircrafts. In this regard, it purchased seven U.S. KC-135r tanker aircraft in late 1997 and deliveries were completed in 1998. Meanwhile the air force also leases two U.S. KC-135 tanker aircraft. The purchase of tanker aircrafts to increase the flight range of Turkish fighter planes would allow the Turkish air force to fly deep inside the enemy territory, especially on missions for detecting and identifying WMD production facilities and mobile missile launchers, as well as to pursue retaliatory strikes and conduct counterforce operations beyond enemy territory. Such a capability would also allow the Turkish air force to be more aggressive and to take greater risks when attacking targets in northern Syria and Iraq.
In April of 1996, the Turkish military announced a 30-year $150 billion coproduction deal with foreign partners. The program includes plans for the acquisition of 640 combat aircraft, 750 helicopters and the purchase of four airborne early warning (AEW) aircraft for delivery by 2003. The building of 24 additional F-16 fighters and modernizing and upgrading of seven tanker aircraft, donated by the USA are also among the procurement plans. In November of 1996, Turkey revealed plans to buy Popeye II missiles from Israel for its modernized F-4 fighters and to co-produce another 120. In September 1997 Turkey reportedly considered buying Israel’s Rafael manufactured Phyton-4 air-to-air missiles for the air force. It was also reported that the Turkish air force was proposing to acquire stand-off munitions and jammers, along with high-speed antiradiation (HARM) missiles for the air force’s F-16 Block 50 aircraft.
Presently, Turkey’s punitive strategy with regard to WMD and ballistic missile threats solely relies on its superior air force, particularly on F-16s, F-4s and other capable aircraft, which have the capability to launch Popeye II precision guided missiles to targets as far as 150 miles in range.

2. Intelligence and Early Warning

The Turkish Armed Forces are also improving their assault, defense reconnaissance/surveillance and early warning capabilities. The TUAF embarked on a project to acquire mobile radars and aerial warning and control aircraft and to negotiate the possible purchase of U.S. early warning planes (AWACS). The objective is to eliminate deficiencies in low-altitude radar coverage against enemy missile and air attacks. In January 2000, the minister of national defense, Sabahattin Cakmakoglu, stated that Turkey would purchase four AWACS planes. In December, it was announced that Turkey was to begin negotiations with a Boeing- led team to meet a requirement for six 737 airborne early warning and control (AEW & C) aircraft, with an option for a seventh, plus ground support elements. The Defense Industries Undersecretariat (SSM) has asked Boeing to transfer the software source codes and other key modification and integration technologies associated with the sale of six to eight Boeing 737 airborne early warning and control aircraft (AEW&C).

The Turkish Armed Forces have also followed a three–phased approach for acquiring the necessary capabilities to improve their intelligence gathering and early warning capabilities, especially in the face of increased missile risks to Turkey’s territory and forces. The first phase is Turkey’s plan for advanced reconna issance that began last year (2000) when it ordered high-altitude long-range oblique photography (LOROP) systems from Israel for use on its 42 RF-4 Phantom reconnaissance aircrafts. The second phase is a joint requirement for long- and short-range unmanned air vehicles (UAVs) which will be procured by local production with foreign partners: four long- and short-range UAV for the army, three long-range UAVs for the navy and two long-range UAVs for the air force.345 The $350 million program involves the production of a total of 23 systems of long-range (300km) and eight medium range (200-300 km) which will enable Turkey to gather intelligence and intelligence photographs, particularly of WMD production facilities and mobile missile launchers that might need to be destroyed deep within the Iranian, Iraqi and Syrian territory. 346 In this regard, recently Turkey’s military has decided to accelerate the procurement of unmanned air vehicles to
bolster preparations for any regional conflict. It was reported that the military would buy up to six UAV systems for the air force to bolster its reconnaissance capability within the next three months.

The third phase is a satellite reconnaissance capability. In order to fulfill this requirement, Turkey has made a $240 million deal with France’s Alcatel, and a Turkish spy satellite will be sent into space by the year 2005. As a result, with a capability to launch unmanned reconnaissance flights along its border with Syria, Iraq and Iran by using long-range cameras and electronic sensors that see deep into all three neighboring countries and to monitor troop and missile launcher deployments from space, Turkey would be able to derive real-time data about a potential WMD or ballistic missile attack on Turkish territory.

3. Theatre Missile Defenses

Turkey has considered acquiring a theatre missile defense (TMD). This is partly in response to Iranian moves to develop the 1,300 km range Shabab-3 medium-range ballistic missile, which is capable of reaching most parts of Turkey. Several vital military facilities and some Turkish major cities including Ankara are practically defenseless against missile threats from its southeastern neighbors. For example, it was reported that the Turkish armed forces favored a multi- tier ballistic missile defense (BMD) concept to counter the ballistic missile threat.349 According to this concept, an enemy missile is intercepted high in the atmosphere by a long-range missile. If this intercept is unsuccessful, there will be a second chance to intercept the missile by a shorter-range system as the missile descends toward its target. Ankara officially adopted a two-tier TMD concept. It will soon start discussions on choosing the specific systems to acquire.
The U.S made Patriot systems and U.S.-Israeli Arrow are the likeliest options for antiaircraft and anti- missile defenses for Turkey.

In mid-1999, Turkish officials stated that deploying a missile defense system is a top defense priority and announced procurement plans for medium and long-range airdefense systems. In a related move, Ankara expressed interest in buying Israel’s Arrow-2 anti-tactical ballistic missile (ATBM) systems. The Arrow missile defense plan involves a layered defense, a possible boost-phase interceptor, new battle management systems and sensor and also close cooperation with the U.S. In this regard, in January 2000, Turkey participated in a simulated-theatre-missile defense exercise under the auspices of the Turkish bilateral working group on theatre-missile defense. Since then, Ankara established a simulation system in Turkey to test theatremissile defence concepts. Indeed, the Arrow project is appealing not only because of its
advanced stage of development (the only one of its kind to become operational by the year 2000) and its high level technology, but also because of U.S. involvement. Israel’s Arrow system was successfully tested again in August 2001 and can intercept the most advanced ballistic missile developed in the Middle East, including Iran’s Shabab-3 and Syria’s Scud-D missiles, which have ranges of 1,300 km and 700 km subsequently.

The U.S. Patriot Advanced Capability-3 (PAC-3) Patriot surface-to-air (SAM) system is also seen as the other most likely candidate. The U.S. PAC-3 system was successfully flight- tested in October 2001 and is expected to be ready for an operational test phase quite soon. The tests have proven successful and the PAC-3 missile system was suggested to be fully capable of defeating the entire WMD threat to Turkey, such as tactical ballistic missile, cruise missiles and aircraft and the United States is expected to begin full-rate production in September 2002. Within a NATO Theatre Missile Defense (TMD) context, Turkey has also expressed interest in the Medium Extended Air Defence System (MEADS) being developed on a trilateral basis by the US, Italy and Germany. The MEADs is planned to be fielded by the year 2005. Perceiving vulnerability to potential missile attacks from its southeastern neighbors, the Turkish Defense Ministry also plans to bolster the nation’s airspace. The ministry’s plans will procure of 148 low altitude anti-aircraft batteries and a network of batteries to protect against low- flying missiles.358 The batteries will be composed of Turkish-produced Harpoon and Reckle systems that will protect Turkey’s airports and military bases. Ankara also supports the U.S. plans to deploy a national missile defense system (NMD). Turkey’s proximity to states of proliferation concern encourages support for the project. Therefore, Turkey is much more sympathetic to President Bush’s missile defense plan than most European NATO allies. Turkey considers itself a potential host to NMD interceptors, probably including a defense base in Turkey. 360 The U.S. plan opts for a
boost-phase missile defens e system, which would attack Iraqi or Iranian ballistic missiles shortly after launch. According to Phil Gordon, the U.S. National Security Council’s director for southern Europe, “ It would be necessary to base interceptor missiles near those countries’ borders (Iran and Iraq) in southeastern Turkey. Even if a boost-phase system is not selected, deployment of early warning stations to Turkish territory is likely.”

Turkey is also embarking on the design and production of its own short rangerange missiles, and could move to develop longer-range systems. Under a 10-year program, Turkey and the UK will co-produce 841 Rapier Mk 2B missiles for the Turkish Land Forces and the Turkish Air Force (TUAF) in Turkey at the Turkish facilities near Ankara. It should be also noted that 120 Army Tactical Missile System (ATACMS) missiles were transferred to Turkey in December 1995. With a range of 165 kilometers, ATACMS is effective against high-value targets deep behind the battlefield, including deployed ballistic missile launch sites, surface-to-air missiles and command and control units. These missiles can be launched from the Multiple Launch Rocket System, of which Turkey already possesses twelve and offers at least some protection against Iran, Iraq and Syria. Turkey’s efforts to acquire tactical missiles suggest that its incentives to develop its own retaliatory capabilities as opposed to defensive efforts is increasing, as Turkish cities become more and more vulnerable to missiles launched from areas near Turkey.

D. IMPLICATIONS FOR TURKISH SECURITY

Turkey’s conventional military capabilities put Turkey in a superior position visà- vis its southeastern neighbors. In the case of an armed aggression, Turkey’s procurement and military modernization programs suggest that Turkey plans to strike the WMD production facilities and missiles launching sites in the enemy territory with its highly capable air power. At the same time, by penetrating behind the enemy lines and by destroying the enemy missile launchers and other potential delivery means with its special forces, Turkey plans to neutralize enemy’s asymmetrical capabilities (WMD) before they are deployed to forward storage positions.

Conventional superiority, however, might not be sufficient to deter many potential adversaries under all circumstances. A country’s war-winning capabilities might not always mean war-deterring capabilities. It could be a challenge for Turkey to make its conventional capabilities visible to an NBC-armed adversary so that these capabilities may become part of the adversaries’ risk calculation. For example, Israel’s conventional superiority and more importantly nuclear ambiguity did not deter Iraqi missile attacks at Israel during the Desert Storm. In contrast, Iraq fired nearly 90 Al Hussein missiles at Israel and the Arabian Peninsula during Desert Storm. Even while dealing with adversaries that are deterrable, denying the aggressors’ expectations of a quick military victory and political gain by pursuing asymmetric strategies would be very important. And if deterrence fails and NBC-backed aggression occurs, Turkey’s threats to use conventional military force to inflict suffering and massive destruction on the aggressor is less likely to force the aggressor to back down or to capitulate. Thus, it is essential that Turkey acquire the capabilities to deny the enemy the political and military benefits of WMD acquisition. Therefore, analyzing Turkey’s possible defense options and necessary measures to counter the increasing WMD risks to its security in the concluding chapter is necessary.

Here's evidence of the $160 billion modernization which includes, procurement of 640 combat aircraft, 750 helicopters and the purchase of 7 airborne early warning (AWACS) aircraft from NON-TURKISH SOURCES as requested.

It must be noted however:
(1) Two B737 MESA AWACS have already been delivered and are in the Turkish Inventory
(2) In 2006, some changes have been made to the above plans (positive changes). The F-15 purchase has been abandoned in favour of another batch of 150 unknown 5th Generation fighter jet. There is speculation that this will be the Eurofighter Typhoon, co-produced in Trache 3.
(3) The arrow missile defence system has been abandoned in favour of a US or Russian system to be co-produced in Turkey.

The Turkish Air Force is easily in the Top 5 Air Forces in Asia my friend.

The Israeli and Turkish Military alliance is also noteworthy. See a summary of the relationship: JINSA Online -- A New Axis by Daniel Pipes

Due to the fact that Turkey has a bad image in the western world (thanks to media) some individuals lack the knowledge about such country's Military power and political orientation. Despite propaganda to the contrary, Turkey is a western, democratic, staunchly secular, constitutional Republic.

In addition, Turkey for a country with the following Military might keeps a modestly low profile in the International Arena. But this does not change the realities. It just proves that Turkey sticks to it National Moto: "PEACE AT HOME, PEACE IN THE WORLD". And Peace only comes with deterence!

If you have any further questions please feel free to ask me and I shall try and answer.

Sumku · 04-29-2008, 15:49 PM

Good for Turkey. I must state that its impressive.

And I had stated earlier I guess I was quite close when I said that this $160Billion would be distributed over 40 years.

Quite frankly, I have had no idea about Turkey's massive military buildup as I keep myself more focussed on threat perception coming from India's immediate neighbour, with whom we have a 90% chance of seeing a war within our lifetimes, and whenever this happens, it most likely would be
India Vs (Pakistan+China).

But still, even if I were to become PM of India, then despite the threat perception, and despite the perception of this threat turning real with India Vs (Pakistan+China), I still would not allocate 5-6% of GDP on Defense. I would rather Invest that money in Internal Economy, and then allow 2.5% or 3.0% of even greater economy to do its Job.

3.0% of $1.5Trillion economy is one thing and 3.0% of $3.0Trillion economy is quite another.

I frankly dont know if that military buildup with that quantum of money is justified or not for Turkey and that's for something Turkey's people to decide. I guess I am not qualified to comment on the same.

However, since Turkey is spending roughly $5Billion/year, so the threat perception to Turkey I guess would rather be very huge.

All I understand is you are in close proximity to Iran and Syria. Its anyone's guess as to which countries are most likely to go on war with Iran and Syria as both Iran and Syria in their right frame of mind would not Initiate war on Turkey on its own, Turkey also I guess would not be country to Initiate war on Syria and Iran on its own.

But still there are countries who would want to go on War with Syria and Iran. One is Israel and other is US, and when it comes to Iran, it would be US and not Israel.

So what I am saying is that in any event of war against Iran, it would be Turkeys AirForce that would do most of the job against Iranian Airforce. So much for NATO membership and so much to desire for EU recognition, but as I said, I am not qualified enough to comment on matters concerning a country as faroff as Turkey.

Moral of the Story: If every country is preparing for a WorldWarIII, chances are that the World will see another Genocide and Another WorldWarIII.

04-24-2008, 07:58 AM	#91 (permalink)
Deltacamelately *Military Professional* Join Date: 09-29-07 Posts: 713 Country:	Turkey is not in Asia. It is considered to be an European Country. __________________ I am the DARK that Rise to Kill..And Soar to Redeem!

04-28-2008, 00:25 AM	#92 (permalink)
TUSAS1 Regular Join Date: 04-19-08 Posts: 45 Country:	Actually, Turkey is a Euro-Asian country. Thus, it is both European and Asia. In fact, Turkey is a partner in many Asian organisations as well. For Example, it is a Full member of the Asia-Pacific Space Cooperation Organization (APSCO)Turkey Signs Up For Asia-Pacific Space Program Thus, Turkey is definately in this race and I would rank it as having the 3rd best Air Force in Asia. 240 F-16 CCIP, 170 F-4 Terminator 2020, 100 F-35 (Delivery commences in 2010), 150 Unknown 5th Generation Fighter approved (possibly Eurofighter consortium in Trache 3) 6 B737 MESA AWACS, 7 KC-135 Tankers This is just a summary, I posted a detailed link previously. Last edited by TUSAS1 : 04-28-2008 at 00:29 AM.

04-28-2008, 15:00 PM	#95 (permalink)
Sumku Contributor Join Date: 04-12-08 Location: Allahabad Posts: 370 Country:	Thats Impressive. Good for Turkey. Though I still have reservations on whether we can actually Count Turkey as amongst the Top-5 Airforce's in Asia[if we were to assume that Turkey is part of Asia]. I guess no. Yeah, you might field an F-35 a good 3-4 years before other Forces, however F-35 is not the end-all-be-all of everything. Qualitative Superiority is one thing and Numerical Superiority is other and both have their own pros and cons. How many F-35's are you going to fleld anyways. From how many Airfields are they going to operate. What Solid Air Defense have you in place? Besides Training is another aspect we cant forget. Also economically,how strong are you. Do you really think that Turkish AirForce would come as a winner when compared to China? I guess no. F-35 is not everything. In a real war like situation, probably Russia,China and India can quickly put a lot more 4.5 Gen A/C's in air than Turkey can field F-35's. Qualitative Superiority has advanages only in a Ratio of lets say 1:3 or at the max 1:5 and definitely not 1:20. 5-6 Jag's can easily take out an F-35. So again the Question "How many F-35's Turkey would field/make".How many BVR missiles you have. China has tons of them and so has Russia. Turkey's Air Force is Impressive and would give a clear shot over Iran, but still no place amongst Top-5 in Asia.

04-28-2008, 23:38 PM	#99 (permalink)
Gun Grape Resident Curmudgeon *Military Professional* Join Date: 03-12-05 Location: Panama City Fl Posts: 2,566	During the 80s and 90s Turkeys defense budget hovered between 4-6% of their GDP. The question that has to be asked is, How relevant do you want your military to be? If you really want the AF that Turkey plans on, or the US , then you make sacrifices in other places. From the USAF perspective. Want to pay for those extra F-22s that you want to buy? Might have to retire the 117s a little early and live with a small gap in your bag of tricks. And you cut people. You also get with the other services and see what programs they might be willing to sacrifice to be covered by an "A" team Air Force. Maybe Turkey puts the F-5s and F-4s in the bone yard, and cut the personnel that had F-4/5 skills and invest that money towards the goal that they have set.

04-29-2008, 15:49 PM	#102 (permalink)
Sumku Contributor Join Date: 04-12-08 Location: Allahabad Posts: 370 Country:	Good for Turkey. I must state that its impressive. And I had stated earlier I guess I was quite close when I said that this $160Billion would be distributed over 40 years. Quite frankly, I have had no idea about Turkey's massive military buildup as I keep myself more focussed on threat perception coming from India's immediate neighbour, with whom we have a 90% chance of seeing a war within our lifetimes, and whenever this happens, it most likely would be India Vs (Pakistan+China). But still, even if I were to become PM of India, then despite the threat perception, and despite the perception of this threat turning real with India Vs (Pakistan+China), I still would not allocate 5-6% of GDP on Defense. I would rather Invest that money in Internal Economy, and then allow 2.5% or 3.0% of even greater economy to do its Job. 3.0% of $1.5Trillion economy is one thing and 3.0% of $3.0Trillion economy is quite another. I frankly dont know if that military buildup with that quantum of money is justified or not for Turkey and that's for something Turkey's people to decide. I guess I am not qualified to comment on the same. However, since Turkey is spending roughly $5Billion/year, so the threat perception to Turkey I guess would rather be very huge. All I understand is you are in close proximity to Iran and Syria. Its anyone's guess as to which countries are most likely to go on war with Iran and Syria as both Iran and Syria in their right frame of mind would not Initiate war on Turkey on its own, Turkey also I guess would not be country to Initiate war on Syria and Iran on its own. But still there are countries who would want to go on War with Syria and Iran. One is Israel and other is US, and when it comes to Iran, it would be US and not Israel. So what I am saying is that in any event of war against Iran, it would be Turkeys AirForce that would do most of the job against Iranian Airforce. So much for NATO membership and so much to desire for EU recognition, but as I said, I am not qualified enough to comment on matters concerning a country as faroff as Turkey. Moral of the Story: If every country is preparing for a WorldWarIII, chances are that the World will see another Genocide and Another WorldWarIII.