The F-4 Phantom - Page 2

Anon · 09-15-2003, 15:27 PM

No more than a Tornado or F-15E.

**TopHatter** · 09-15-2003, 17:03 PM

I think he meant the escape pod :unsure

Anon · 09-15-2003, 17:30 PM

LOL, oh.....

**Ironduke** · 09-21-2003, 19:08 PM

How maneuverable was the F-4? Was it mainly an interceptor or was it a good dogfighter?

Hawg166 · 09-21-2003, 20:32 PM

Wow that is a good question and I dont know that as a crew chief I could give you a pilots answer. I dont think the F4 was an interceptor, at least not a long range fleet air defense type interceptor. I am sure it played an interceptors role though. It wasnt a particilarly good dogfighter either to my knowledge. I believe pilot training and superior US made missles were its assett. From what i understand the US actually had a pretty bad kill to loss ration in Vietnam. I dont know how many birds were lost in actuall air to air combat versus the number lost to enemy air defenses. However i believe the number lost to AAA would be greater considering the awesome amount of AAA encountered by our pilots. The Phantom played a big ground attack role though. Curiously enough, it was actually the F-100 Super Sabre that flew more missions in Vietnam than any aircraft bar none.

Anon · 09-22-2003, 03:00 AM

The USAF had a 3:1 kill ratio. By the end of the war, the USN had a better than 10:1 kill ratio(Top gun was institued because of the poor early showing of USN pilots).

**TopHatter** · 09-22-2003, 13:48 PM

Speaking as a uneducated civ, I'll throw in my 2 cents uninvited (as usual).
From what I am given to understand, the F-4 is not really a pure dogfighter like the F-15. The Phantom gives up a lot to it's air-to-ground capabilities. This is not to say that the F-4 is not a fearsome air-to-air machine, both in it's day and today. OK, it's no F-15 or Su-27 but neither is it something to be dismissed out of hand either. It's certainly in the twilight of it's career, hanging on with other air forces that have upgraded it's various systems.

bigross86 · 09-22-2003, 14:26 PM

It's almost as cool as the Hawg!

Sparky · 09-22-2003, 16:19 PM

I used to work Comm/Nav systems on the F-4D for the Guard. They used to say the F4 was proof that if you put enough power behind it even a brick can fly! It had good power from the engines and could carry a decent weapons load for its day. It also had a tough airframe compared to some other fighters of its era.

Anon · 09-22-2003, 16:25 PM

The F-4 was "The classic boom and zoom airframe", in the words of Mr Mudd.

It was concieved when everything needed to go mach 2, and everything needed to deliver tactical nukes against WP forces.

It should come as no shock then, that it is not exactly optimized as a dog fighter.

Mr Mudd states the turning radius of an F-4 is about twice the radius of an F-16.

**TopHatter** · 09-22-2003, 16:34 PM

Eh, pardon my ignorance, but who is Mr. Mudd? I like the way he talks

Hawg166 · 09-22-2003, 16:36 PM

Mr Mudd is pilar of that glorious kingdom we call 'HAWGDOM'

**TopHatter** · 09-22-2003, 16:45 PM

SIGH The A-10 Hawg...how do I love thee?
I take that everybody has read that book on the Hog during Desert Storm? After hearing for years about those pointy-nosed fighters that go Mach-snot, I practically salivated over that book.

Anon · 09-22-2003, 21:37 PM

Mr Mudd is a former F-16 jockey, and weapons school instructor.

And a good guy to boot.

bigross86 · 09-23-2003, 01:47 AM

We don't hold his being a lawndart pilot against him. Which Hawg book are you talking about TopHatter?

09-15-2003, 17:03 PM	#17 (permalink)
TopHatter Administrator Join Date: 09-03-03 Location: Fort Myers FL Posts: 9,694 Country:	I think he meant the escape pod :unsure __________________ If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader. ~John Quincy Adams

09-21-2003, 20:32 PM	#20 (permalink)
Hawg166 Regular Join Date: 09-10-03 Location: Western Mass.....with the injuns Posts: 112	Wow that is a good question and I dont know that as a crew chief I could give you a pilots answer. I dont think the F4 was an interceptor, at least not a long range fleet air defense type interceptor. I am sure it played an interceptors role though. It wasnt a particilarly good dogfighter either to my knowledge. I believe pilot training and superior US made missles were its assett. From what i understand the US actually had a pretty bad kill to loss ration in Vietnam. I dont know how many birds were lost in actuall air to air combat versus the number lost to enemy air defenses. However i believe the number lost to AAA would be greater considering the awesome amount of AAA encountered by our pilots. The Phantom played a big ground attack role though. Curiously enough, it was actually the F-100 Super Sabre that flew more missions in Vietnam than any aircraft bar none. __________________ "Now we shall have ourselves a pell mell battle!" ......The Immortal Memory, Admiral Nelson

09-22-2003, 14:26 PM	#23 (permalink)
bigross86 401 Ikvot Habarzel *Military Professional* Join Date: 08-07-03 Location: Ra'anana, Israel Posts: 3,148	It's almost as cool as the Hawg! __________________ You're a naughty girl, go to my room!

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09-15-2003, 15:27 PM	#16 (permalink)
Anon New Member Join Date: 08-03-03 Posts: 0	No more than a Tornado or F-15E.

09-15-2003, 17:30 PM	#18 (permalink)
Anon New Member Join Date: 08-03-03 Posts: 0	LOL, oh.....

09-21-2003, 19:08 PM	#19 (permalink)
Ironduke Burgomaster Join Date: 08-02-03 Location: Minneapolis Posts: 6,802 Country:	How maneuverable was the F-4? Was it mainly an interceptor or was it a good dogfighter?

09-22-2003, 03:00 AM	#21 (permalink)
Anon New Member Join Date: 08-03-03 Posts: 0	The USAF had a 3:1 kill ratio. By the end of the war, the USN had a better than 10:1 kill ratio(Top gun was institued because of the poor early showing of USN pilots).

09-22-2003, 13:48 PM	#22 (permalink)
TopHatter Administrator Join Date: 09-03-03 Location: Fort Myers FL Posts: 9,694 Country:	Speaking as a uneducated civ, I'll throw in my 2 cents uninvited (as usual). From what I am given to understand, the F-4 is not really a pure dogfighter like the F-15. The Phantom gives up a lot to it's air-to-ground capabilities. This is not to say that the F-4 is not a fearsome air-to-air machine, both in it's day and today. OK, it's no F-15 or Su-27 but neither is it something to be dismissed out of hand either. It's certainly in the twilight of it's career, hanging on with other air forces that have upgraded it's various systems.

09-22-2003, 16:19 PM	#24 (permalink)
Sparky Regular Join Date: 09-12-03 Location: Illinois USA Posts: 50	I used to work Comm/Nav systems on the F-4D for the Guard. They used to say the F4 was proof that if you put enough power behind it even a brick can fly! It had good power from the engines and could carry a decent weapons load for its day. It also had a tough airframe compared to some other fighters of its era.

09-22-2003, 16:25 PM	#25 (permalink)
Anon New Member Join Date: 08-03-03 Posts: 0	The F-4 was "The classic boom and zoom airframe", in the words of Mr Mudd. It was concieved when everything needed to go mach 2, and everything needed to deliver tactical nukes against WP forces. It should come as no shock then, that it is not exactly optimized as a dog fighter. Mr Mudd states the turning radius of an F-4 is about twice the radius of an F-16.

09-22-2003, 16:34 PM	#26 (permalink)
TopHatter Administrator Join Date: 09-03-03 Location: Fort Myers FL Posts: 9,694 Country:	Eh, pardon my ignorance, but who is Mr. Mudd? I like the way he talks

09-22-2003, 16:36 PM	#27 (permalink)
Hawg166 Regular Join Date: 09-10-03 Location: Western Mass.....with the injuns Posts: 112	Mr Mudd is pilar of that glorious kingdom we call 'HAWGDOM'

09-22-2003, 16:45 PM	#28 (permalink)
TopHatter Administrator Join Date: 09-03-03 Location: Fort Myers FL Posts: 9,694 Country:	SIGH The A-10 Hawg...how do I love thee? I take that everybody has read that book on the Hog during Desert Storm? After hearing for years about those pointy-nosed fighters that go Mach-snot, I practically salivated over that book.

09-22-2003, 21:37 PM	#29 (permalink)
Anon New Member Join Date: 08-03-03 Posts: 0	Mr Mudd is a former F-16 jockey, and weapons school instructor. And a good guy to boot.

09-23-2003, 01:47 AM	#30 (permalink)
bigross86 401 Ikvot Habarzel *Military Professional* Join Date: 08-07-03 Location: Ra'anana, Israel Posts: 3,148	We don't hold his being a lawndart pilot against him. Which Hawg book are you talking about TopHatter?

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