Thread: China PLA

Originally Posted by parihaka

So is Sergio Caneloni or whatever he's called a real life ass clown or was he just made up for the fake story?

Sergio Coniglio, writes for Mil Tech. Unfortunately, he like several other gents over the years, got taken in by the fancy CGI work.

Originally Posted by wistar01

Does US bother about Fiji? should be really does US care about India?

Yes, the US doesnt bother about Fiji or India, but it does seem a lot of you PRC folks are worried about India. Why? After all, if you were so ahead, you wouldnt care, right?

Originally Posted by Archer

Yes, the US doesnt bother about Fiji or India, but it does seem a lot of you PRC folks are worried about India. Why? After all, if you were so ahead, you wouldnt care, right?

PRC folks do not feel either way about India. In fact, until I started posting on military forums, I wasn't even aware Indians hated Chinese people so much. Go take a survey in China, you would be surprised how many people even know China fought a war against India in 1962. Even those who do know about it don't care much about it. No mean to disrespect, most Chinese people have the same recollection of China's conflict with Russia and Vietname. The Chinese government doesn't even know why Indian government doesn't want to sign a FTA with it.

Originally Posted by tphuang

PRC folks do not feel either way about India. In fact, until I started posting on military forums, I wasn't even aware Indians hated Chinese people so much.

Correction, Indians do not hate the Chinese people, only the Communist Party of China. We do about $15 billion worth or business with them that is growing annually.

Go take a survey in China, you would be surprised how many people even know China fought a war against India in 1962. Even those who do know about it don't care much about it. No mean to disrespect, most Chinese people have the same recollection of China's conflict with Russia and Vietname.

They also do not have any opinion about who runs the govt, so that does not matter. What matters is that the CPC and PLA know it.

The Chinese government doesn't even know why Indian government doesn't want to sign a FTA with it.

They bloody well know why - we arn't their dumping ground for cheap goods.

Originally Posted by tphuang

PRC folks do not feel either way about India. In fact, until I started posting on military forums, I wasn't even aware Indians hated Chinese people so much.

You are one to talk!
You are a Canadian who is a Chinese nationalist, but it hardly makes you representative of the average Chinese nationalist or PRC leadership. In fact, CMF, or any of the half dozen internet sites with even reasonably educated mainland Chinese show contempt for India.
As regards hating- Indians dont make comments on Chinese culture or the Chinese people, or internal issues- we merely comment on the PRC rulers, namely the Communists who are hostile to India. This is where propoganda comes in, the Chinese media and Govt organs have taken great care to ensure that a very selective view of India is available to their denizens, and they parrot it ad nauseum. They point to any minor social issue in India, tie it into a larger case of how 'effed up India is, and then relate it to its system of governance, ie democracy which is flawed, keeps people poor, has social evils persist, hindu-muslim violence, caste system, this, that..
There is no essence of dialogue, of nuance, or of civilizational respect or history. In contrast, the Chinese people are not slagged against in India. Ask any educated Indian what he thinks of the PRCs civilization, and he will invariably respond positively- not engage in a diatribe on feudalism, and this and that. Some might even quote this dude.

Contrast this with the likes of Pin, who invariably comment on Indian religious and social issues and hold it to be a problem. They then say this proves the PRCs superiority and get outraged when an Indian disparages communist rule, in turn. Frankly, India has suffered under colonization- but the worst is when your own grab onto a foreign idealogy and suppress your own people out of their misguided zeal. Hopefully, the chinese people will one day show the communists the door, but its your choice to make.

India is and will remain wary of the PRC Junta, because actions speak louder than words, and the PRC has done its utmost to mess up India's security- its that simple. The 1962 conflict is hardly the key determiner. The PRCs continued relationship with Pak is.

Its a shame because of how close the two nations could be, if the PRC junta were not so reflexively anti-Indian, and still did not look at India through the eyes of pre-revolutionary China vs the colonialists, but they do, and will continue to do so- if present attitude is anything to go by.

Go take a survey in China, you would be surprised how many people even know China fought a war against India in 1962. Even those who do know about it don't care much about it. No mean to disrespect, most Chinese people have the same recollection of China's conflict with Russia and Vietname.

I have interacted with many Chinese, offline and on- and there are people on both sides of the spectrum. Hardly as rosy as you are making it out to be, but not the India-Pak thingy either, so thats a plus.

The Chinese government doesn't even know why Indian government doesn't want to sign a FTA with it.

This is what makes me crack up. Did the PRC Govt personally inform you of this? Trust me, both India and China's Govt's know how skin deep their trust of each other is, and both nations are strategic rivals. Not allies. They know very well, what each nations decisions are driven by.

But both engage in business and have taken care to keep their powder dry. Neither country wishes for an open conflict, which is a good thing.

Well Pin and wrangui both vocalised a low opinion of India, then again wrangui is a nationalistic fool of the highest order, I have no time for such blind naivitey as is shown by those who bestow a blank check of praise upon those born on one side of an imaginary line, and then heap criticism upon every action of one born on the other side of said line.

Originally Posted by lemontree

Correction, Indians do not hate the Chinese people, only the Communist Party of China. We do about $15 billion worth or business with them that is growing annually.

actually I have to disagree with you here. Lemontree, you and several others, I don't find that kind of hostility. But there are many Indian posters that are extremely hostile and hateful toward anything Chinese. I almost have to compare it to Chinese people hating Japanese.

They also do not have any opinion about who runs the govt, so that does not matter. What matters is that the CPC and PLA know it.

CMC these days are actually quite reflective of Chinese public. You have to visit some military forums based in Mainland to see this.

They bloody well know why - we arn't their dumping ground for cheap goods.

I don't think so, it seems to me that China thinks it will benefit both side. Although, I do agree that it will work to benefitting China far more.

Originally Posted by tphuang

But there are many Indian posters that are extremely hostile and hateful toward anything Chinese.

I am sure that hate is directed against the CPC/ PLA, or could be a retaliation for flame posts by "chinese origin" members. We just don't hate the people that much.

I almost have to compare it to Chinese people hating Japanese.

That is an exaggeration, the Chinese greviences against Japan stem from the atrocities in the 1930s. There is no such black event in Sino-Indian bilateral history, unless the chinese blame us for the British invasion during the 19th century.

I don't think so, it seems to me that China thinks it will benefit both side. Although, I do agree that it will work to benefitting China far more.

The cheap products actually threatened some industries hence the barriers were put in place.

Originally Posted by Archer

You are one to talk!
You are a Canadian who is a Chinese nationalist, but it hardly makes you representative of the average Chinese nationalist or PRC leadership. In fact, CMF, or any of the half dozen internet sites with even reasonably educated mainland Chinese show contempt for India.

you'd be amazed at how much contact I still have with people in China. And I do visit Chinese forums all the time, so you get a good perspective. I just visited my relatives this summer for a month. I believe generally Chinese people are extremely uneducated about India and thinks that it's a backward society, but mainlanders tend to be extremely naiive about foreigners. You can see that in Pin and Wang.

As regards hating- Indians dont make comments on Chinese culture or the Chinese people, or internal issues- we merely comment on the PRC rulers, namely the Communists who are hostile to India. This is where propoganda comes in, the Chinese media and Govt organs have taken great care to ensure that a very selective view of India is available to their denizens, and they parrot it ad nauseum. They point to any minor social issue in India, tie it into a larger case of how 'effed up India is, and then relate it to its system of governance, ie democracy which is flawed, keeps people poor, has social evils persist, hindu-muslim violence, caste system, this, that..

I would put you in the middle of the pack. You can get openly hostile for anything Chinese sometimes. You also really do overplay the propoganda stuff. To put it simply, China is a very East Asian-centric society. This time that I went back, I did not see or hear any mention of India at all. So, it does not attempt to give people a selective view of India. In China, people get a lot of exposure to Japanese, Taiwanese, South Korean, Singapore and HK society through media for obvious reasons, but you definitely won't hear people talk about India, Pakistan or Middle East.

There is no essence of dialogue, of nuance, or of civilizational respect or history. In contrast, the Chinese people are not slagged against in India. Ask any educated Indian what he thinks of the PRCs civilization, and he will invariably respond positively- not engage in a diatribe on feudalism, and this and that. Some might even quote this dude.

Contrast this with the likes of Pin, who invariably comment on Indian religious and social issues and hold it to be a problem. They then say this proves the PRCs superiority and get outraged when an Indian disparages communist rule, in turn. Frankly, India has suffered under colonization- but the worst is when your own grab onto a foreign idealogy and suppress your own people out of their misguided zeal. Hopefully, the chinese people will one day show the communists the door, but its your choice to make.

you know, very few people in China thinks that communism is a problem, right? In realistic terms, China is more like ruled by nationalistic party. And since China has never had a democratic culture, it has not been a problem.

India is and will remain wary of the PRC Junta, because actions speak louder than words, and the PRC has done its utmost to mess up India's security- its that simple. The 1962 conflict is hardly the key determiner. The PRCs continued relationship with Pak is.

Its a shame because of how close the two nations could be, if the PRC junta were not so reflexively anti-Indian, and still did not look at India through the eyes of pre-revolutionary China vs the colonialists, but they do, and will continue to do so- if present attitude is anything to go by.

interesting you called it a junta, since Hu and Wen definitely don't fit that criteria. In fact, I find them to be far more competent leaders than George W Bush can ever hope to be. The thing with Pakistan is that China only has so many real allies in this world, can you really blame China for maintaining friends in this world?

I have interacted with many Chinese, offline and on- and there are people on both sides of the spectrum. Hardly as rosy as you are making it out to be, but not the India-Pak thingy either, so thats a plus.

Chinese people online gives you a very narrow look at what Chinese people are like. If you ask an average Chinese woman, they would look at Indians and Pakistanis exactly the same way. But they would immediately tell you that they hate Japanese and like South Koreans.

This is what makes me crack up. Did the PRC Govt personally inform you of this? Trust me, both India and China's Govt's know how skin deep their trust of each other is, and both nations are strategic rivals. Not allies. They know very well, what each nations decisions are driven by.

But both engage in business and have taken care to keep their powder dry. Neither country wishes for an open conflict, which is a good thing.

China knows this, but they are also business people. They believe in the principle that business comes first and money talks.

tphuang,its not about the ordinary chinese people..talking about China mainly means the CCP leadership.And when you discuss something about the Chinese its the CCP which comes to mind cuz its they whos running the country from top to bottom...with no room for any other options.

And Indians are well aware of the motives and propaganda of the CCP.The Chinese people may not be bothered about India but I am sure the CCP factors India into whatever decisions they make..and we Indians always look at CCP decisions with certain degree of circumspect and suspicion(having previously burnt our fingers and all).

And this is where Indians do not understand this. The CCP currently has the support of the ML Chinese people.

Originally Posted by tphuang

you'd be amazed at how much contact I still have with people in China. And I do visit Chinese forums all the time, so you get a good perspective. I just visited my relatives this summer for a month. I believe generally Chinese people are extremely uneducated about India and thinks that it's a backward society, but mainlanders tend to be extremely naiive about foreigners. You can see that in Pin and Wang.

What you consider naivete, and dismiss as "generally"- others equally see as insulting and ingrained hostility. That stereotypical perception of other countries and cultures visible in Chinese nationalists, comes from what they are taught- every Chinese nationalist I have met offline, and online has repeated a set of mantras about India and the US- its enough to make me grin, and realise that it is propoganda, and has been actively propogated to boot. Whether it be comments on the west, or India or any of the nations the PRC junta does not like- virtually the same flawed rhetoric is used word for word.

I would put you in the middle of the pack. You can get openly hostile for anything Chinese sometimes. You also really do overplay the propoganda stuff. To put it simply, China is a very East Asian-centric society. This time that I went back, I did not see or hear any mention of India at all. So, it does not attempt to give people a selective view of India. In China, people get a lot of exposure to Japanese, Taiwanese, South Korean, Singapore and HK society through media for obvious reasons, but you definitely won't hear people talk about India, Pakistan or Middle East.

There you go again- which is why you are so funny at times. I am not "openly hostile" to anything Chinese. I and many others, are however, skeptical of the PRC controlled state media on occasion, given that there is little to no way to crosscheck whatever they say, within the PRC. Little to no audit methodology, practically zilch cross vetting and accountability visible for external observers. Simply, put the PRC only projects what it wants known, and the media knows its place, and the judiciary obeys the party. Anyone who has grown up in a free society, as imperfect as it may be, would look open such a state of affairs with circumspection. Its something which even YOU should have realized, but havent.

The problem with you and other folks who still harken towards Chinese nationalism, is that you equate our skepticism for "hate" towards the PRC's people. Its hardly hate, its more of a detached cynicism, which by necessity one must use when poking through all the stuff that is leaked from the PRC. As Ken Allen noted in a study- some General got an award for excellent improvements to training, which was tom tommed. But what was unreported was how dismal the standards were before.

you know, very few people in China thinks that communism is a problem, right? In realistic terms, China is more like ruled by nationalistic party. And since China has never had a democratic culture, it has not been a problem.

And there are many Indians who still believe in Marx and Lenin. Your point being?
Simply - even if someone were to challenge the party, he would be cut down, so whats the point. I can understand patriotism, the PRC people are just making the best of what they have. The PRC leadership may be !@#%, but they are their own !@#$ as the saying goes.

interesting you called it a junta, since Hu and Wen definitely don't fit that criteria. In fact, I find them to be far more competent leaders than George W Bush can ever hope to be. The thing with Pakistan is that China only has so many real allies in this world, can you really blame China for maintaining friends in this world?

It is a junta, because if you go against the party, you are in a heap of trouble, ranging from threat to life, to imprisonment. Irrespective of GWBush's flawed choices, the American people elected him and people like Noam Chomsky can mock him, Moore can poke fun at him. Try that in China.

Coming to Pakistan, transferring nuke technology and military supplies in plenty, is not mere friendship. It is a clear attempt by China to bottle up India and present it with a local rival.

Chinese people online gives you a very narrow look at what Chinese people are like. If you ask an average Chinese woman, they would look at Indians and Pakistanis exactly the same way. But they would immediately tell you that they hate Japanese and like South Koreans.

I have met mainland Chinese and interacted with them extensively- I fail to see what your above point is. The fact is that nationalists do tend to have a particular stereotype about India, US and several of the PRC's rivals, thanks to what they have been taught/ bombarded with from day 1. In contrast, in India you have papers which are openly sympathetic to the PRC, and even anti-Tibet (the Hindu), political parties which support the PRC (CPI-M, CPI), notable commentators who even toe the Chinese line on occasion (several, in fact). Any of these acts viz. India would have landed these people in the docks, in the PRC.

China knows this, but they are also business people. They believe in the principle that business comes first and money talks.

Sure, and which is entirely good.

Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers

And this is where Indians do not understand this. The CCP currently has the support of the ML Chinese people.

Sir, we do understand that. But its not like they have much of a choice, beyond a point.

Another very significant factor about Indians' outlook towards China is the China's close relationship with Pakistan.So do the Chinese people agree with CCP on this?According to what tphuang said..the Chinese people regard Indians and the Pakistanis as not very different from each other.