Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't it true that the EF can ONLY supercruise in a clean configuration with far less than a full tank of gas? I don't think this statement can or should be considered in the comparison because I don't the EF will ever supercruise in an operational sense without new engines.. Also, I have heard nowhere that the EF has vectored thrust (I assume that is what you mean by "VT"). Do you have a link that supports VT and supercruise in a true combat configuration? For the most part I agree with the rest of your statements.Originally Posted by ace009
No One Kicks A$! Without Tanker Gas
My bad - the EF2000 does not have a proper "supercruise" but they have the closest thing to it, same with VT - as per this article and this discussion ...
Eurofighter Technology and Performance : Propulsion
eurofighter @ starstreak.net • View topic - Supercruise and engines
Ace o Spades in Ninth Hell
Correct. There is the option to add TVC to the EF (or almost any fighter) but I have not seen or heard that it is a gauranteed upgrade. Personally, I would be surprised if they added it. The EF is already quite nimble and many of the partner nations are trying to cut defense costs (even reducing orders).
No One Kicks A$! Without Tanker Gas
Agreed; you can even add TVC to an F-15 (F-15 S/MTD), but I don't see countries lining up to purchase the F-15 with VT, it's not worth the cost.
"Yeah. See, we plan ahead, that way we don't do anything right now. Earl explained it to me." - Tremors, 1990
Ace o Spades in Ninth Hell
Here's the link for an nice article on why India turned down the US birds...
http://www.carnegieendowment.org/fil...A_Decision.pdf
Interesting read. Thanks, commander.
No One Kicks A$! Without Tanker Gas
Lockheed May Tempt India With Stealth F-35 to Rejoin $11 Billion Bidding
So many questions.Lockheed Martin Corp. (LMT) may offer its latest warplane, the F-35 stealth fighter, to India in a bid to rejoin the Asian country’s $11 billion combat-jet competition after its older F-16 model was eliminated.
Lockheed’s chances of offering the F-35 for the 126-plane order were boosted last week when the U.S. Senate Armed Services Committee asked the Defense Department to study the “desirability and feasibility” of a joint strike fighter sale to India, said Patrick Dewar, senior vice president for corporate strategy and business development, in an interview at the Paris Air Show.
1. Are they ****** serious about this?
2. What about the long long waiting list? Are they going to bypass other Nato allies and deliver aircrafts to India?
3. Will India allow them to enter the competition this late? The offer of f-35 sure must be very tempting.
4. How are they going to meet the Indian ToT demands when the US doesn't share its F-35 secrets/source code even with its Nato allies ?
The euro consortium and France are not going to like this one bit
Lockheed May Tempt India With Stealth F-35 to Rejoin $11 Billion Bidding
So many questions.
1. Are they ****** serious about this?
2. What about the long long waiting list? Are they going to bypass other Nato allies and deliver aircrafts to India?
3. Will India allow them to enter the competition this late? The offer of f-35 sure must be very tempting.
4. How are they going to meet the Indian ToT demands when the US doesn't share its F-35 secrets/source code even with its Nato allies ?
The euro consortium and France are not going to like this one bit
The Eurofighter consortium has almost won this contest..
Publicity stunt for future IN buys of the F-35C, methinks.Lockheed May Tempt India With Stealth F-35 to Rejoin $11 Billion Bidding
So many questions.
1. Are they ****** serious about this?
2. What about the long long waiting list? Are they going to bypass other Nato allies and deliver aircrafts to India?
3. Will India allow them to enter the competition this late? The offer of f-35 sure must be very tempting.
4. How are they going to meet the Indian ToT demands when the US doesn't share its F-35 secrets/source code even with its Nato allies ?
The euro consortium and France are not going to like this one bit
New Delhi: India has officially put a full stop to the frantic US pressure to enter the $10.4-billion race for 126 Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA).
Reacting to media reports that the US may offer F-35 fighter jets to re-enter the MMRCA race, the official spokesperson in the ministry of defence (MoD), Sitanshu Kar, told FE that, “We have progressed a lot in the MMRCA programme, we have crossed a lot of stages that have become part of history.”
“It is too late in the day for any new entrant,” said a senior Indian Air Force (IAF) officer on condition of anonymity.
Industry sources, agreeing with the government’s decision not to allow any new entrant in the already closed race, said: “It is a very interesting situation. The trials are over. The commercial bids are expected to be open shortly. Discussions on offset commissions are progressing well. While one government is offering its best machine, it will be India’s call finally.”
However, the source added that “it will be unfair to the shortlisted contenders”.
The government has shortlisted the European consortium Eurofighter’s Typhoon and the French Dassault’s Rafale fighter aircraft.
Lockheed Martin’s offering, the F-16IN, was eliminated from India’s $10.4 billion, along with rival Boeing’s F-18IN Super Hornet offering. The MMRCA deal was touted as the ‘mother of all defence deals’ in the international defence industry.
Though the Indian Air Force never seemed very interested in the F-16 Falcon from the US-based Lockheed Martin, one of the several reasons for the aircraft not being in the race could be the fact that fact that Pakistan also flies F-16s. Also Lockheed Martin could have run into problems in meeting the industrial offset provisions, given its lack of penetration in India.
India has been invited to F-35 events. With potential US order numbers dropping, India could have joined the elite programme. However, India chose to join hands with Russia for its Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) programme, which offers a semi-indigenous alternative.
The F-35 jet is still in development and the planes would cost about $133 million each. The Pentagon plans to buy more than 2,400 of them, which means that at an estimated $382 billion, it is Pentagon’s most expensive weapons programme ever. A rough estimate has it that at $133 million per unit, the cost of acquisition for the MMRCA would go up by 50 per cent should the IAF opt for the F-35. This would inflate the $11-billion MMRCA tender to $17 billion.
:: Bharat-Rakshak.com - Indian Military News Headlines ::
Its a financial express news... the MoD will not be allowing such a late entry of the F 35 into the fray..
As for F-35 in MMRCA, it is too late for that. However, there is a fair chance for the F-35 in the naval-MRCA contest for IN, but LM has to understand that the F-35 would be acceptable to India only if they allow ToT and a separate production line in India, something that LM had offered for F-16IN in the MMRCA contest. India is looking not only to buy the aircraft, but also some of the critical technologies behind it to kickstart the Indian aviation and defense industries. India does not cheat and copy like China, but want to buy the rights to and license the actual technologies. But without technologies, the aircraft is a no-go.
Ace o Spades in Ninth Hell
Firstly, there will be no ToT offered and taken in the naval competition. nor will there be a separate production line. the numbers to be bought are too little. nobody wants to set up a new production line for 40 fighters.
This logic is acceptable for deal the size of MMRCA. again not for 30-40 fighters.India is looking not only to buy the aircraft, but also some of the critical technologies behind it to kickstart the Indian aviation and defense industries.
hmmmm....................India does not cheat and copy like China, but want to buy the rights to and license the actual technologies. But without technologies, the aircraft is a no-go.
Last edited by classical1939; 02 Jul 11, at 10:32.
Interesting, but predictable. The continued emphasis on hyper-maneuverability, outside-lomcevaks, and airshow handling, makes me want to chew on a pistol barrel like it was an all-day lollipop.
The need existed, from post-vietnam to the mid 1980's. But even then, we realized that improved radars, sensors, and above all, all-aspect weapons with radically improved Pk (probablility of a kill), took the importance of agility down several notches. In all of GW1, there was not a single turning engagement as practiced so heartily throughout the 1980's. Not one.
The simple truth is, entry into the WEZ (weapons engagement zone) of an aware fighter means death. If unaware, he may be dispatched without turning. There is no longer a need to maneuver to an opponent's six o'clock. He who detects first, shoots first, wins.
We have offloaded maneuverability into reliable missiles that can pull 40, 50 G, as opposed to the target's 9 G.
Spend the money, the technology, on sensors, stealth, and weapons. Not on living wings, fancy slats, thrust vectoring.
Get a T/W and an airframe capable of supercruise. That, I agree, is tactically potent. Otherwise, be happy with instantaneous turns capable of swinging a nose into a position where that 50 G dogfight missile can do its magic.
I see you're slightly irritated by some exciting tactical irrelevancies.
"This aggression will not stand, man!"
Jeff Lebowski
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