Thread: MRCA Competition

Guess I was bit hasty on Rahul Bedi. HAL site does mention AL31FP as one of the engines under manufacture.

HAL engine division

Products in Current Manufacturing Range



The Engine Division at Koraput, a unit of HAL's vast network, has the unique distinction of being one amongst the few Aero Engine manufacturers in the world.

The spectrum of manufacturing facilities extends literally from the production of nuts and bolts to discs, shafts, blades, forgings and castings - all that are required to make an Aero Engine right from the Raw materials.

This spectrum is further enlarged to include overhaul of Aero Engines for the MiG family and supply of spares required during service.



AL-31 FP engine

AL-31FP is a high temperature turbojet by-pass engine of modular design. A specific feature of AL-31FP is an axi-symmetric vectoring nozzle with a thrust vector angle of ±15° in the vertical plane providing super maneuverability of the aircraft. The vectoring nozzle control is integrated with the engine control system. AL-31FP engines ensure stable operation in all available evolutions of the aircraft in super maneuverability modes. AL-31FP engines power advanced multi-purpose Su-30 MKI fighters of the 4+ generation.

Originally Posted by kams

Guess I was bit hasty on Rahul Bedi. HAL site does mention AL31FP as one of the engines under manufacture.

HAL engine division

I heard they are also going to be building the Thrust vectoring engines for the Naval Mig-29K

Big Question. If we are so good at making this stuff, how come the Kaveri engine has gone nowhere? I ask that question sincerely.

Originally Posted by texasjohn

I heard they are also going to be building the Thrust vectoring engines for the Naval Mig-29K

Big Question. If we are so good at making this stuff, how come the Kaveri engine has gone nowhere? I ask that question sincerely.

i think it is because the other engines, the Russians are basically providing the blueprints and instructions. For the Kaveri, we have to build it from the ground up....

Originally Posted by Archer

Garry, that is the reason why the SuperHornet and F-16 dont have much of a chance in the Indian MRCA tender. Uncle Sam and India's interests diverge when it comes to Pakistan or so it appears.

BTW, any details about a MKI upgrade, which I am told is being negotiated?

While I agree that F-16 is a non starter, Shornet is front runner.

I also think that Indians must realize that once they do ANYTHING without agreeding with USA... their Super Hornets would be left without spare parts. This could things like fighting/threatening US best aly in the region Pakistan..... or imporing gas from Iran.... or projecting its power in Malaga straits.... or etc.

Most of those who buy weapons to USA have to review their independent foreign policy.

I have a difference of opinion. As per US laws, US can impose sanctions only if India conducts Nuclear test. In that case **** will hit the fan and all bets are off. Importing gas from Iran will not trigger any sanctions (although they are not gonna like it and will do their best to deep six the deal).

Shorenet is technologically much ahead of the competition. Its Low RCS will come in handy. The weapons/Avionics package that will come with Shornet really stands apart (AESA, AMRAAM - AIM120C. JDAM etc etc).

Arms deals are complicated. In addition to technical aspects . lot of strategic issues and real politic involved. Shornet deal will be Indias quid pro quo for nuclear deal.

It's highly unlikely that Mig-35 (lol its Mig-29 with a new engine and TVC, and new radar) will get the deal (Atleast the full deal). IAF's experience with Mig-29 has not been too rosy (engine life of 300 hrs?, MBTO??). And Russia has no new weapons to offer with Mig-29 (KH-172 is still far away). Integrating western Avionics going to take time (look at Su-30MKI development time lines), which IAF does not have.

If USA does not offer AESA with Shornet, then it is a fight b/w Rafale and EF Typhoon.

This is my opinion, then again you never know

Originally Posted by highsea

"HAL will also build the fighters' AL-31FP thrust-vectoring engine."


??????

Yes. HAL is going to make an assembly of AL-31FP for themselves on the final stage of license program. Moreover they have option to pay additional amount and get technology for hot (high pressure) compressor and its blades!!! However this has to be a separate contract.... as India now lacks this kind of metallurgy to locate rotor blade contractors. Even Chinese order their rotor blades from USA, Europe and Russia.... there are only few places in the world which can make this high tech thing - Jappan, USA, UK, France, Russia/Ukraine.... some types for civil aviation engine and power generating gas turbines are done in Canada and Germany. FULL STOP

Indians NEVER sign any big contract like MKI without good SWEETNER in there.... I guess they are now bargaining some SWEETNER for MRCA.....

yea... now thinking about engine life and long term costs, I think the Mig-35 starts very low on the list....

Originally Posted by highsea

"HAL will also build the fighters' AL-31FP thrust-vectoring engine."


??????

Hi Highsea,

Yes, TOT for the Al-31 FP including its single crystal blades was part of the deal. Apart from that HAL has also got deals for the Al-55I turbofan (basically a miniaturized Al-31 in some respects) for the IJT, as well as TOT for the Adours coming on the new Hawks, which will primarily be assembled otherwise (44 in India). IOW, even apart from the Al-31 FP, there are other "deals" underway. Then of course, theres the MRCA contract, it might come with significant TOT too.

http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_228.shtml

A beautiful model of the Sukhoi Su-47 Berkut with the Al-31FP thrust vectoring engine for the Su-30MKI, in the background. The engine will be built under license at HAL's Engine Division, Koraput, who will also manufacture the single crystal turbine blades for the same.

There was a picture of the single crystal blades displayed by HAL (manufacturing tech) but I couldnt locate it.


http://www.tribuneindia.com/2004/20040507/nation.htm#7

India already has a deal with Saturn-Lyulka to produce the AL-31 FPs at HAL’s Koraput division, as part of the $ 3.3 billion deal to produce under licence 140 Sukhoi - 30 MKIs in India.

The AL-55 I will also be made at Koraput. Its modular engine, and like the AL-31FP, has single crystal blades which can survive high thermal stress. It generates 1727 kg of thrust, and has a thrust to weight ratio of 5.59. Even a small 12 to 15 per cent of extra thrust can make enormous difference, especially in a training aircraft being flown by rookie pilots. Mr Mohanty said under the deal, HAL will have all rights over the engine, including the right to export it. “It will be completely ours.”

What he meant was that the IJT could be exported without threat of sanctions or the like.

HAL has put the 31 FP up as well.
http://www.hal-india.com/EngineKoraput/products.asp

The spectrum of manufacturing facilities extends literally from the production of nuts and bolts to discs, shafts, blades, forgings and castings - all that are required to make an Aero Engine right from the Raw materials.

About the raw material & alloys, the project is underway as well. This wouldnt be required at all, if license assembly was all that was undertaken.
PR blurb, but interesting details galore...the LCAs directionally solidified blades were also being certified, so per this report apparently Midhani will be part of the next process (single crystal) blades once the other issues in the program are sorted out (vibration at specific regimes).

http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/5599/midhani5pp.png

Midhani is basically India's manfacturer re: strategic alloys.

Ok, got it:

Posted by BHarry (Acig.org) in February 2004, after interacting with HAL:

The AL-31 series have a better SFC than most comparable engines. HAL's Foundry and Forge complex of Engine Division Koraput started to establish facilties some years ago for the manufacture of components for the AL-31FP and this does include the manufacture of directionally solidified Single-Crystal blades. This is the second time I'm posting this pic (via HAL),

Originally Posted by Garry

Yes. HAL is going to make an assembly of AL-31FP for themselves on the final stage of license program. Moreover they have option to pay additional amount and get technology for hot (high pressure) compressor and its blades!!! However this has to be a separate contract.... as India now lacks this kind of metallurgy to locate rotor blade contractors. Even Chinese order their rotor blades from USA, Europe and Russia.... there are only few places in the world which can make this high tech thing - Jappan, USA, UK, France, Russia/Ukraine.... some types for civil aviation engine and power generating gas turbines are done in Canada and Germany. FULL STOP

Indians NEVER sign any big contract like MKI without good SWEETNER in there.... I guess they are now bargaining some SWEETNER for MRCA.....

Hi Garry,

IIRC the TOT for blades was part of the deal and did not need to be negotiated separately. The entire set up is being undertaken at HAL Koraput in Northeast India, which is the "traditional" engine manufacturer.
Interestingly, HAL also displayed the blade technology it was acquiring from Russia at an aerospace event.