MRCA Competition

**kams** · 03 Sep 06, 21:41

As per the recently published defence procurement procedures, Life cycle cost of the aircraft is to be taken in to consideration when arriving at the final cost. This is being done for the first time in the history of Indian Defence procurement. If we consider Life cycle cost, Russian aircraft may no longer be cheapest. The engine life is less as compared to American, and the down time (No. of full overhaul/Flying hours) is high. The competition is really between F-18, Typhoon and Rafel. If AESA is offered then F-18 has a flying start.In addition its a LO craft a usefull feature to have

. French have very good relationship with India, so Rafel has some thing going for them (remember Pranab is visiting France next week).

RFP is likely to be issued in September (Once the Nucler bill is voted in USA)

**Archer** · 05 Sep 06, 04:02

Originally Posted by itchynuts

According to these reports..

BS. Where do those reports speak of poor quality "Indian made items" in the MKI being the rationale for stopping indigenization. If you wish to retain any credibility, learn not to insert your own claims and pass them off as "reports".

http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/holnus...0609031860.htm

Bangalore, Sept. 3 (PTI): The Hindustan Aeronautics Limited today said it had not scrapped the initial plans for full indigenisation of Sukhoi fighter aircraft at its facilities in India and said the production of the warplane continued in HAL. The Bangalore-headquartered HAL dismissed reports over Sukhoi (Su-30 MKI) in a section of the press, quoting a Russian newspaper, as "completely incorrect".

A HAL statement said "Total technology is getting established in HAL as planned. In order to complete the programme by 2015 instead of 2018, as required by the Indian Air Force, certain components and systems are being procured from Russia. This decision was taken to optimise the investments in HAL". It added: "The programme of indigenous production of Su-30 MKI aircraft in HAL is continuing at an accelerated pace as compared to earlier plan".

Media reports from Russia last week suggested that in a move to save costs and speed up delivery of Sukhoi fighter aircraft, HAL has scrapped initial plans for full indigenisation of the warplane at its facilities in India. Russia's `Kommersat' daily reportedly said an agreement signed recently between Russian arms firm Rosoboronexport and Indian Defence Ministry has changed the timeframe of the completion of USD 3.5 billion contract for the licensed production of 140 Su-MKI by HAL.

"Three critical airborne systems of the fighters-- electronic warfare system, reconissance system and direction finding modular radar have not not been integrated with the latest batch of aircraft delivered by the Russians under the November 1996 contract, the report said."

The CAG report dates from the 2004-05 fiscal year. These systems have already been integrated.

The HADF from DARE, Bangalore
The Elta 8222 from IAI
The Litening LDP/ Long range observation pod

**itchynuts** · 05 Sep 06, 07:31

Indian track record of trying to build an indigenous weapons says that.

Im not trying to flame here, what I'm saying is based on India previous experiences.

T-72 - Poor metallurgy, ammunition, faulty radios, fire control systems and poor quality treads.
T-90 - Ammunition, subs-ystems, etc..
LCA -

ARJUN -
MIG-21 - Poor quality Indian made spare parts. One of the reaons why so many crashed.
AJT -
INSAS - Ask Nepalese Army.
MKI - Probably technical problems, and always has an excuses..
-
-

Most of the weapons above built with TOT from Russia. I've never heard of a case getting
licence production then being unskilled enough to be able to make them, military first.

**Archer** · 05 Sep 06, 08:24

Dont BS and try to change the topic. You made a categorical claim implying that the reason of cost being doubled was poor local parts in the case of the MKI, unless you have a report stating the same 'fess up and stop lying.

This was what you said:

I've heard that India has given up producing the MKIs locally, because of poor quality indian made components which causes the price of the MKIs double.

The rest of your post is the same trashy hyperbole & incitement to flaming that got you booted out once already.

I addressed your claims already, but of course you were trolling & had no intention of sticking around. Typical shoot & scoot tactics.

http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/sho...0&postcount=64

**itchynuts** · 05 Sep 06, 13:26

Those MKI are now as expensive as Rafale.
The reason the price has doubled is because the Indian didnt have the experience to manufacture such an aircraft. Thats why you're paying double the price for each unit, just like all India other projects. That's not a lie.

**Tronic** · 05 Sep 06, 13:58

Originally Posted by itchynuts

T-72 - Poor metallurgy, ammunition, faulty radios, fire control systems and poor quality treads.
T-90 - Ammunition, subs-ystems, etc...

that happened due to the production shifting to Kanpur's ordinance factories... and the steel was being tempered at a wrong temperature then the specifications laid down by the Russians... As soon as the fault was discovered, it was fixed....

these are all old problem which have already been addressed... and dude, you are obviously trolling as I see that Archer has already answered you on these issues here: http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/sho...0&postcount=64

MIG-21 - Poor quality Indian made spare parts. One of the reaons why so many crashed.

BS. Why so many crashed is due to its long service record... it has been serving the forces for nearly 50 years!!! Which other fighter aircraft can boast of that record???

INSAS - Ask Nepalese Army.

yes... imagine on how much they trusted the INSAS rifle to fire it continous for 10 hours!!! and then they complained why it jammed...

MKI - Probably technical problems, and always has an excuses...

dude... quit with your wishful thinking and come to reality... the only problems the MKI induction is facing is that it is getting very expensive.....

**Garry** · 05 Sep 06, 14:17

MiG-35 has maximum ferry range extended to 2,200 km - I got it from recent beer talks with my friend. This translates into realistic combat range of 900km with four missiles (two R-27 and two R-73)..... this is more than India needs from a light fighter like it is. And note that MiG-35 has almost same dimensions as Fulcrum.... just more powerful modification of engines and wider spin.

Super Hornet is COMPLETELLY different aricraft from Hornet..... I wonder why the earlier is called modificaton of the later? I read that it has very little in common with Hornet. This aircraft is anything but LIGHT. You can judge by its take off weight and dimensions.... it weights more than early versions of F-15C.... well lets not call this bird LIGHT.

It is very funny but, MiG-35 which is basically a modification of good old Fulcrum.... has different designation!!!

_______________________________________

I also think that Indians must realize that once they do ANYTHING without agreeding with USA... their Super Hornets would be left without spare parts. This could things like fighting/threatening US best aly in the region Pakistan..... or imporing gas from Iran.... or projecting its power in Malaga straits.... or etc.

Most of those who buy weapons to USA have to review their independent foreign policy.

**Archer** · 05 Sep 06, 14:19

Originally Posted by itchynuts

Those MKI are now as expensive as Rafale.
The reason the price has doubled is because the Indian didnt have the experience to manufacture such an aircraft. Thats why you're paying double the price for each unit, just like all India other projects. That's not a lie.

Is there no end to your BSing? Are you even aware of the averaged cost of a Rafale as available to external customers? The MKI's entire program cost divided by the number of units comes to 45 MUSD per plane, which is entirely reasonable given its abilities. If BS is all that you are capable of, why even post? Sit and satisfy your itch in your groin.

**Archer** · 05 Sep 06, 14:22

Originally Posted by Garry

I also think that Indians must realize that once they do ANYTHING without agreeding with USA... their Super Hornets would be left without spare parts. This could things like fighting/threatening US best aly in the region Pakistan..... or imporing gas from Iran.... or projecting its power in Malaga straits.... or etc.

Most of those who buy weapons to USA have to review their independent foreign policy.

Garry, that is the reason why the SuperHornet and F-16 dont have much of a chance in the Indian MRCA tender. Uncle Sam and India's interests diverge when it comes to Pakistan or so it appears.

BTW, any details about a MKI upgrade, which I am told is being negotiated?

**Garry** · 05 Sep 06, 14:31

Originally Posted by Archer

Garry, that is the reason why the SuperHornet and F-16 dont have much of a chance in the Indian MRCA tender. Uncle Sam and India's interests diverge when it comes to Pakistan or so it appears.

BTW, any details about a MKI upgrade, which I am told is being negotiated?

Talked to Irkut.

The problem is in HAL. It was supposed to build a lot of workshops for design of components (wings, tail, cockpit and finally centerplan). However so far only limited number of equipement is being installed and even less people trained.... However HAL as general contractor of MKI licensing part carries SOLE responsibility for the timelly delivery of licensed MKIs... So HAL decided to shift few of the licensed MKIs to Irkut. However licensed production had lower price in the contract than that from Irkut.... hence the shift brought program back to schedule but it inflated the overall cost.

I hope put in in clear form.... i got this in a messy way in May 06 and sorted out situation by July.

**itchynuts** · 05 Sep 06, 14:33

Originally Posted by Archer

Dont BS and try to change the topic. You made a categorical claim implying that the reason of cost being doubled was poor local parts in the case of the MKI, unless you have a report stating the same 'fess up and stop lying.

This was what you said:

I've heard that India has given up producing the MKIs locally, because of poor quality indian made components which causes the price of the MKIs double.

The rest of your post is the same trashy hyperbole & incitement to flaming that got you booted out once already.

I addressed your claims already, but of course you were trolling & had no intention of sticking around. Typical shoot & scoot tactics.

http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/sho...0&postcount=64

I didn't claim! I said "I've heard....."
The news seems like that way, if look back at Indian track record, and I believe alot of non-Indians agree with me.

Calling me a troll, because I posted news that Indian people here don't like to hear..ummm..
It seems like indian community here only like to hear good propaganda news..

well, I'm just a messenger, don't shoot Me, shoot the messages.

Have fun.

PS: Making up too many excuses won't help India!

**Archer** · 05 Sep 06, 23:45

Dont BS. You made up some stupid claims without proof, and are now backpeddling.

You were called a troll because of your shoot and scoot tactics & your past behaviour.

As regards non Indians agreeing with you, if one begins with Shenyang etc, you would be the first to wail. So stop your BS'ing and act productively.

As regards excuses, isnt that why you got canned last time? Because you quickly resorted to attacks against I4U when he pointed out the nonsense in your "my chinese reactors are bigger than yours" commentary.

**Archer** · 05 Sep 06, 23:50

Originally Posted by Garry

Talked to Irkut.

The problem is in HAL. It was supposed to build a lot of workshops for design of components (wings, tail, cockpit and finally centerplan). However so far only limited number of equipement is being installed and even less people trained.... However HAL as general contractor of MKI licensing part carries SOLE responsibility for the timelly delivery of licensed MKIs... So HAL decided to shift few of the licensed MKIs to Irkut. However licensed production had lower price in the contract than that from Irkut.... hence the shift brought program back to schedule but it inflated the overall cost.

I hope put in in clear form.... i got this in a messy way in May 06 and sorted out situation by July.

Thanks Garry, HAL basically has three years less in the new timeline to set up its facilities etc.
So it makes sense that it had to ask for a few more orders from Russia before the local ones got ready.

This report also says the same- that instead of 140, HAL will now build 114 in India.

JANE'S DEFENCE WEEKLY - JULY 26, 2006

HAL speeds up local production of Su-30MKI

Excerpt:

India's Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) is to 'compress' the local production of 140 Su-30MKI 'Flanker' multirole fighter aircraft by three years, completing the USD3 billion project by 2013-14.

"We are increasing production very fast," said Ashok Baweja, chairman of state-owned HAL. "This year we will make our first Su-30MKI from raw materials in the fourth phase."

Licensed manufacture of Su-30MKI's at HAL's Nasik complex in western India will be increased from eight to 13 fighters per year, HAL officials confirmed, completing the undertaking well before the earlier 2016-17 deadline.

The accelerated manufacture of Su-30MKIs is to make up for the rapid depletion of Indian Air Force (IAF) fighter squadrons, which will drop from 29 to 26 by 2010, after they retire ageing and obsolete MiG-21 variants.

The initial three Su-30MKI batches of 26 aircraft - the first locally built fighter was handed over to the IAF in November 2004 - were assembled from Russian kits following the outright purchase in the late 1990s of 50 Su-30 and Su-30MKI fighters, which are based at Pune in western India.

HAL officials claimed that the indigenous component for the remaining 114 fighters would progressively increase, reducing the cost and maximising production in various HAL plants around the country. HAL will also build the fighters' AL-31FP thrust-vectoring engine.

**highsea** · 06 Sep 06, 00:26

Originally Posted by Archer

...This report also says the same- that instead of 140, HAL will now build 114 in India.

"HAL will also build the fighters' AL-31FP thrust-vectoring engine."

??????

**Tronic** · 06 Sep 06, 00:27

!!!!.... one question....... how?

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