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Thread: Australia Reviews JSF

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    Australia Reviews JSF

    http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au...9-2702,00.html

    Stealth fighter project 'flawed'
    Michael McKinnon and Cameron Stewart
    June 24, 2006
    AUSTRALIA'S biggest-ever defence project, the $16 billion Joint Strike Fighter, has potential flaws that could reduce the world's newest warplane to just an "average aircraft", according to internal Defence Department documents.

    The documents reveal the JSF is beset with serious software problems and a cockpit display system so bad it had to be almost completely redesigned.

    Defence Minister Brendan Nelson, a staunch defender of the troubled JSF program, will travel to the US at the weekend for talks with the plane's manufacturer, Lockheed Martin.

    But despite the latest setbacks with the project, Dr Nelson still supports plans to spend $16billion to buy up to 100 of the yet-to-be-built JSFs to replace the ageing F-111 strike bomber and F/A-18 fighter jets from 2012.

    Dr Nelson described the JSF program as not only the most expensive, but also the most challenging, defence project in Australian history.

    "We are very committed to the JSF as it will deliver all the capabilities we need and want," he said.

    Dr Nelson agreed that the transfer of information from the US to the project partners, such as details of the plane's stealth technology, was a significant issue and he vowed to walk away from the project unless guarantees were given.

    "I will be meeting with US Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld next week and this issue will be discussed," he said.

    Despite the risks raised in the Defence Science and Technology Organisation report, he said, he remained confident the JSF was the best choice for the Royal Australian Air Force.

    The $256billion US-led JSF construction program has been dogged with cost blowouts and production delays, raising doubts about the value of the deal and the ability of Lockheed Martin to deliver the new fighter on time.

    Now, Australian scientists from the DSTO have identified "major risks" to the plane's performance in its complex software, advanced cockpit displays and central computer system. A DSTO report from December, obtained under Freedom of Information laws, warns that a "technical risk assessment" by DSTO found "major risks" inherent in the aircraft's cockpit display system.

    "Late or substandard software development within the display system results in poor mission system integration," DSTO says.

    "Realisation of this risk may result in loss of functionality, poor system reliability, or poor man-machine interface which reduces the pilot's ability to perform."

    It describes the integration of technology for the plane's cockpit as being only "at the laboratory breadboard stage".

    Sources told The Weekend Australian last night that the cockpit problems were so severe the system had been completely redesigned.

    Another major problem identified by Defence scientists is the central computer system -- the same issue that led to the Collins-class submarines initially being labelled as "dud subs".

    DSTO complains of difficulty assessing the scale of the JSF's software problems because of a lack of information from the US.

    "Software is a key enabler ofthe integrated mission systems, which transform a kinematically average aircraft into a highly capable weapon system," DSTO says.

    "The lack of technical information prevents DSTO from conducting a thorough analysis of the integrated performance of the (cental computer system).

    "The lack of information is due to a number of factors including the novel acquisition approach, US International Trade in Arms Regulations, and what would appear to be proprietary restrictions."

    The first JSF test plane was built early this year and will have its first flight later in the year. But the partnership between the US and its allies over the plane has been fraught.

    Australia and Britain -- which also plans to buy the plane -- have complained to the US about Washington's reluctance to share the JSF's stealth technology, warning they would pull out of the deal if that technology were not made available.

    Britain has since signed a deal with Washington to share the stealth technology, but Australia has yet to do so.

    Opposition defence spokesman Robert McClelland warned yesterday that the JSF's problems, and possible delays in its delivery, could leave Australia with a dangerous gap in air capability.

    "Billion-dollar bungles like the Government's mismanagement of the Super Seasprite helicopter project could really pale in comparison to this unprecedented $16 billion project -- big enough to account for almost the entire annual Defence budget," Mr McClelland said.

    "If Labor win Government we will closely examine the option of acquiring F-22 Raptors, at least in the initial procurement phase, to ensure Australia does not forfeit regional air superiority between retirement of the F-111s in 2012 and delivery of replacement JSFs in 2015 at the earliest and more likely 2017."

    The Howard Government has paid $155 million to join in the design of the JSF, with a final decision on the purchase of the plane due in 2008.

    Cost overruns have lifted the average fly-away cost of the plane from $45 million to more than $60 million per plane.
    Found this on another forum... will the Aussies take the JSF? The UK has already cut the numbers it's planning to buy to 132-8 (figures vary).
    Last edited by PubFather; 24 Jun 06, at 19:48.
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    Hm same thing between China and Russia.
    Simple words we are your buyers so you need to give us plans and tehnology or we will not buy your planes.

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    That article came from a newspaper here - i nearly posted it up here myself, yesterday.

    IMHO - We will definately take the JSF - this is just politics.

    Note that our total expenditure on the JSF program is $155million (AU i gather) to be part of the program, and 6bn for total procurement.

    $6bn (AU) will not buy anywhere near enough F22s - in AU dollars they're likely to be about 300 million a piece... and that's if the US would even export them to us.

    So that would be what, 20 airframes, to replace 70 or so F/A-18s and all of our F111s (not sure how many of those we have). Not even a starter...


    edit:
    I'd love for us to get the F22 instead, imho it's a far more suitable aircraft for the job - but it's just not likely to happen with our budget.
    Last edited by nutter; 25 Jun 06, at 03:09.

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    So that would be what, 20 airframes, to replace 70 or so F/A-18s and all of our F111s (not sure how many of those we have). Not even a starter...
    I believe it's about 30 Aardvarks as of now. Personally I don't think 100 JSFs is near enough either but yeah the Raptor is right and and any suggestion that we're buying it is absurd. And you're right we probably will stick it out with the JSF but it's far from certain, if the costs blow out too much more the Eurofighter might actually become cheaper, in which case we should dive on board for that, since the RAAF brass don't like the idea of using 30 year old airframes like the Hornet or Eagle no matter how upgraded.
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    Gordon Brown backs upgrading Britain's nuclear deterrent, and now in Australia, "If Labor win Government" they "will closely examine the option of acquiring F-22 Raptors"... an interesting week for left-wing armaments procurement.
    Last edited by HistoricalDavid; 25 Jun 06, at 11:19.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HistoricalDavid
    Gordon Brown backs upgrading Britain's nuclear deterrent, and now in Australia, "If Labor win Government" they "will closely examine the option of acquiring F-22 Raptors"... an interesting week for left-wing armaments procurement.
    1. Labour will not win because they fractured and lead by people who are incredibly stupid considering they actually got to where they are now. Do not take this as a sign of support for the Liberals on my part, both parties are as pathetic and corrupt as eachother. Choice in this country is dead.

    2. Labour is led by Kim Beazley, who pretty much ruined the ADF for about 10 years with his incompentence while part of the Keating government. He's kinda like our Dick Cheney in that respect, but a little less evil.

    3. We simply cannot afford to buy any half decent amount of Raptors and the Aardvarks need to be retired right now and the Hornets will need the same soon.

    And for a nation like the UK, nuclear deterrent is dead and gone.
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    The way I see it, the ADF needs to be budgeted for at least 9 infantry battalions to fill out our requirement for maintaning one full brigade in expeditionary operations at all times (We have like 7 now) with all their own engineer, aviation, artillery, air defence, cavalry and (at least on the battlefield) logistical support.
    And we need at least 150 warplanes in my opinion, we should do our darndest to find a decent plane that can fit that number, while at the same time filling out our needs (range obviously, multi-role, reliable). M21's idea for Super Eagles isn't bad but the ADF is very big on the whole stealth thing right now, which may end up hamstringing our Air Force since we probably can't afford enough stealth birds of any type.
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    Why did the article claim that the JSF program cost 256 B US dollars? typo i'm sure.

    Well is aussie land can't afford stealth, you could always opt for Russian technology. It's not NATO capable but it could be altered to NATO capability. At least I think so...the reason I think so is because the KA-52 & KA-50 Black Shark russian attack choppers have been rumored to possibly being exported to Israel, and being altered to NATO capability in the process!

    You know, I've always loved Russian technology, only reason I was against it's procurement by any free nation is because it's lacking in better quality weapon systems and sensors + software to power both.
    Last edited by Defcon 6; 25 Jun 06, at 19:10.

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    I find it very unlikely we'll ever use russian technology - simply because very few of our allies do.

    Also, Australia, being a fairly small military force (covering a LARGE land area), needs to make use of "force multiplying" technologies such as stealth and supercruise as much as possible, because there's no way in hell we are ever going to win through superior numbers - we simply do not have them.

    Eurofighter would be a good option (better than the JSF, in my opinion - from what i've seen/heard of both aircraft), but personally due to politics (essentially, John Howard is acting like Bush's lap-dog) - I don't see it happening either.
    Last edited by nutter; 26 Jun 06, at 01:33.

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    I wonder which serious "software problems" they refer to, seeing as the software is only about half finished, lol.

    Or if that is their complaint...

    THE SKY IS FALLING!!!

    Sure these guys aren't part of the Carlo Kopp crowd?
    "We will go through our federal budget – page by page, line by line – eliminating those programs we don’t need, and insisting that those we do operate in a sensible cost-effective way." -President Barack Obama 11/25/2008

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    Quote Originally Posted by nutter
    I find it very unlikely we'll ever use russian technology - simply because very few of our allies do.

    Also, Australia, being a fairly small military force (covering a LARGE land area), needs to make use of "force multiplying" technologies such as stealth and supercruise as much as possible, because there's no way in hell we are ever going to win through superior numbers - we simply do not have them.

    Eurofighter would be a good option (better than the JSF, in my opinion - from what i've seen/heard of both aircraft), but personally due to politics (essentially, John Howard is acting like Bush's lap-dog) - I don't see it happening either.
    I personally think that the JSF would be a better option than the EF2000 mainly because of its stealthy abilities (which gives it a huge advantage in BVR combat) and according to some people it might be able to supercruise limitedly, though, I can't back that up till they actually do testing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Burning_Kid
    I personally think that the JSF would be a better option than the EF2000 mainly because of its stealthy abilities (which gives it a huge advantage in BVR combat) and according to some people it might be able to supercruise limitedly, though, I can't back that up till they actually do testing.
    The Eurofighter can supercruise to Mach 1.3 or around there with an A to A loadout.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Burning_Kid
    I personally think that the JSF would be a better option than the EF2000 mainly because of its stealthy abilities (which gives it a huge advantage in BVR combat) and according to some people it might be able to supercruise limitedly, though, I can't back that up till they actually do testing.
    Close call, but also realise that the aircraft is supposed to replace the F111 *as well*.

    The EF2000 kills the JSF in weapons load as I understand it, has massively superior thrust:weight (from memory), is at least somewhat stealthy, and can definately supercruise.

    Granted, the JSF is a bit "more" stealthy, but it's just one of many factors...

    Plus, the EF2000 is production-ready as I understand it... the JSF is not.


    Again, as I said, very close, but I think the EF2000 fits our needs somewhat better - but what do I know, i'm not in charge :D


    edit:
    Also, for the record, I agree with spoonman - the majority of this story is simply labor trying to get attention and make a noise about anything they can - they do this sort of thing on *every* issue.

    Irrespective of my thoughts or anyone elses - we're getting the JSF, I can be nearly 100% certain of that.
    Last edited by nutter; 27 Jun 06, at 05:37.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nutter
    Close call, but also realise that the aircraft is supposed to replace the F111 *as well*.

    The EF2000 kills the JSF in weapons load as I understand it, has massively superior thrust:weight (from memory), is at least somewhat stealthy, and can definately supercruise.

    Granted, the JSF is a bit "more" stealthy, but it's just one of many factors...

    Plus, the EF2000 is production-ready as I understand it... the JSF is not.


    Again, as I said, very close, but I think the EF2000 fits our needs somewhat better - but what do I know, i'm not in charge :D


    edit:
    Also, for the record, I agree with spoonman - the majority of this story is simply labor trying to get attention and make a noise about anything they can - they do this sort of thing on *every* issue.

    Irrespective of my thoughts or anyone elses - we're getting the JSF, I can be nearly 100% certain of that.
    The F-35 isn't just a bit more stealthy, its massively more stealthy. From articles posted on the web, it is in the class of a B-2 when it comes to stealth. That is significantly more than the EF's. Not to say it aint a bad aircraft, but for sure it isn't as stealthy or even close to the F-35. Also I'm not sure if the F-35 can't carry as much armament as the EF-2000. It can carry 2x 2,000 lbs inside and 2x AMRAAMs. Then you factor in the external pylons and you could probably get a big payload, probably close to the EF's. But note I haven't seen how much either can carry so meh.

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    Well given the distances needed to be covered and all that, range and supercruise are pretty important, and two engines are better than one given the amount of time these things are going to be flying over water. More to the point, I don't think we really need stealth to the point that the JSF possesses, since everyone else in the region is opting for Flankers (not bad, but not up to scratch with the Typhoon or Super-Eagle). We may have to settle for two separate airframes altogether once the JSF's final performance figures become apparent, which I'd be happy with since we'd have the JSF for high-threat areas to punch out air defences and key targets and then we could use something like the Strike Eagle as a bomb-truck in places where enemy warplanes and SAMs aren't much of a threat.
    Then again it all comes down to price, so we'll just have to wait and see I suspect, but buying Boeing would at least keep the USA happy as well if that's what the Government is worried about.
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