Fighter Radar Ranges

**canoe** · 20 Jun 06,, 23:06

I've been reading a lot of rediculus statements about fighter 'x' firing on fighter 'y' from 400 miles away in some of the threads. Which raised an interesting question.

Whats the approximate maximum range of Russian/Amercian 'FIGHTER' based radar sets currently? Assuming detection is of other fighter sized targets.

**canoe** · 20 Jun 06,, 23:22

Made an interesting related find:

Table of RCS Values

B-52 1,000 square meters
F-4 100 m2
F-15 25 m2
B-1B 10 m2
F-117A .01 m2
B-2 1 x 10-6 m2

http://www.airandspacemagazine.com/A...7/Stealth.html

**avon1944** · 21 Jun 06,, 06:38

Originally Posted by canoe

statements about fighter 'x' firing on fighter 'y' from 400 miles away in some of the threads.

Yes, the F-22 with its "ALR-94 integrated EWS," passive detection system can get a good enough position (elevation, angle and, distance) on the potential target it can launch a missile against it when it gets within range of the Slammer Missile.
The amount of computing power the F-22 is truely awsome, a quantum increase over any previous aircraft.
Another means of detection at that sort of range 'could' comes from the data link, an AWACS, etc.

No, the statement is not rediculus but, it is not radar detection. The bad guy has to have his radar on for this to work.

Originally Posted by canoe

Whats the approximate maximum range of Russian/Amercian 'FIGHTER' based radar sets currently?

The F-14, F-15, F.3, MiG.-25, MiG.-31, etc. all have the ability to detect a fighter size target at distances in access of one hundred miles. Now, the F-22 was able to detect a one meter square target at a distance of 130 miles. The range was purposely reduced to 108 miles by reducing the transimiting power. This will cause any detection of RF energy to appear more as random background noise.

I have also seen the following figures for the RCS of the following aircraft;
B-1B/F-18E___ +00.0db =1.0m²
F-35A/B/C____ -30.0db =0.001m²
F-117A_______ -35.0db =0.0005m²
F-22A/B-2A___ -40.0db =0.0001m²

A difference of a factor of 100 times in detectibility for the B-2! A difference of a factor of 20 times in detectibility for the F-117.
Either way America's stealth aircraft are difficult to detect.

Adrian

**hello** · 21 Jun 06,, 16:24

F-15C and Es and Fulcrums have around 5m2. Newer FMS F-15s have around 4m2 RCS. Flankers have around 6, Tomcat's around 6 to 7 probably, depending on the VG wing sweep. Similar for the MiG-25 and MiG-31. EF-2000 and Rafale have low but non-stealthy RCSs of around 0.2m2, but all of these are pretty rough figures considering most real RCSs are classified.

**uss** · 27 Jul 06,, 01:54

Originally Posted by hello

F-15C and Es and Fulcrums have around 5m2. Newer FMS F-15s have around 4m2 RCS. Flankers have around 6, Tomcat's around 6 to 7 probably, depending on the VG wing sweep. Similar for the MiG-25 and MiG-31. EF-2000 and Rafale have low but non-stealthy RCSs of around 0.2m2, but all of these are pretty rough figures considering most real RCSs are classified.

From what I last read, Flankers and Eagles were more comparable. The Fulcrums were naturally smaller, followed by Mirages/MiG21s and F 16s. These are of course generic guestimations just as the figures above. The newer models of these a/c use some nice technologies like RAM coatings and composites. The Fulcrum MRCA is supposed to have effected a decrease by 10X over the oriignal A bird thanks to some excellent RAM tech used by the Russians. THe Indian AF was indeed highly impressed by how effective the reduction was. As a result, the MiG 21 Bison heavily incorporated it to become quite competitive even VS the blk 50/52 f16s in BVR as seen in Simbex. Naturally, nobody really knows what rcs values are on some of these birds because AFs will keep such things classified. For now let us just say that the F22 has a pretty much uncatchable lead when it comes to RCS (until at least the Pakfa turns up).

The Euro birds seem to be heavily hyped IMHO and should be at best marginally better than Russian counterparts like MiG 35.

REgards,
USS.

**The_Burning_Kid** · 27 Jul 06,, 15:46

Here's a list of radar ranges for some popular fighters. I found it compiled on F-16.net (let me see who the author is):

APG-77 AESA (F-22A)

For RCS 0.0001 m2 class target: 20 km+
For RCS 0.001 m2 class target: 35 km+
For RCS 0.1 m2 class target: 112 km+
For RCS 1.0 m2 class target: 200 km+
For RCS 5.0 m2 class target: 300 km+
For RCS 10.0 m2 class target: 355 km+

CAESAR AESA (EF-2000 Tranch3, post-2015 with 1,500 T/Rs)

For RCS 0.0001 m2 class target: 18~21 km+
For RCS 0.001 m2 class target: 32~38 km+
For RCS 0.1 m2 class target: 104~122 km+
For RCS 1.0 m2 class target: 185~216 km+
For RCS 5.0 m2 class target: 278~324 km+
For RCS 10.0 m2 class target: 330~385 km+

APG-63 V2/V3/V4 AESA (F-15C/E/SG)

For RCS 0.0001 m2 class target: 14~19 km+
For RCS 0.001 m2 class target: 25~33 km+
For RCS 0.1 m2 class target: 81~104 km+
For RCS 1.0 m2 class target: 144~185 km+
For RCS 5.0 m2 class target: 215~278 km+
For RCS 10.0 m2 class target: 255~330 km+

APG-81 AESA (F-35A/B/C)

For RCS 0.0001 m2 class target: 16 km+
For RCS 0.001 m2 class target: 28 km+
For RCS 0.1 m2 class target: 90 km+
For RCS 1.0 m2 class target: 160 km+
For RCS 5.0 m2 class target: 240 km+
For RCS 10.0 m2 class target: 285 km+

APG-79 AESA (F/A-18E/F and EA-18G, Block 2 and 3)

For RCS 0.0001 m2 class target: 13 km+
For RCS 0.001 m2 class target: 22 km+
For RCS 0.1 m2 class target: 72 km+
For RCS 1.0 m2 class target: 128 km+
For RCS 5.0 m2 class target: 192 km+
For RCS 10.0 m2 class target: 228 km+

CAPTOR (EF-2000 Tranch 1 and 2)

For RCS 0.0001 m2 class target: 12 km+
For RCS 0.001 m2 class target: 22 km+
For RCS 0.1 m2 class target: 70 km+
For RCS 1.0 m2 class target: 124 km+
For RCS 5.0 m2 class target: 185 km+
For RCS 10.0 m2 class target: 220 km+

RBE-2 AESA (Rafale F4, post-2012)

For RCS 0.0001 m2 class target: 11~13 km+
For RCS 0.001 m2 class target: 20~23 km+
For RCS 0.1 m2 class target: 62~73 km+
For RCS 1.0 m2 class target: 110~130 km+
For RCS 5.0 m2 class target: 165~195 km+
For RCS 10.0 m2 class target: 195~230 km+

APG-80 AESA (F-16E)

For RCS 0.0001 m2 class target: 11 km+
For RCS 0.001 m2 class target: 20 km+
For RCS 0.1 m2 class target: 62 km+
For RCS 1.0 m2 class target: 110 km+
For RCS 5.0 m2 class target: 165 km+
For RCS 10.0 m2 class target: 195 km+

NOAR AESA (JAS-39 C/D PLUS, post-2013)

For RCS 0.0001 m2 class target: 10~11 km+
For RCS 0.001 m2 class target: 18~20 km+
For RCS 0.1 m2 class target: 56~62 km+
For RCS 1.0 m2 class target: 100~110 km+
For RCS 5.0 m2 class target: 150~165 km+
For RCS 10.0 m2 class target: 178~195 km+

APG-63 (F-15C)

For RCS 0.0001 m2 class target: 9 km+
For RCS 0.001 m2 class target: 16 km+
For RCS 0.1 m2 class target: 51 km+
For RCS 1.0 m2 class target: 90 km+
For RCS 5.0 m2 class target: 135 km+
For RCS 10.0 m2 class target: 160 km+

RBE-2 PESA (Rafale F1/F2/F3)

For RCS 0.0001 m2 class target: 7~9 km+
For RCS 0.001 m2 class target: 13~15 km+
For RCS 0.1 m2 class target: 41~49 km+
For RCS 1.0 m2 class target: 73~87 km+
For RCS 5.0 m2 class target: 110~130 km+
For RCS 10.0 m2 class target: 130~154 km+

APG-73 (F/A-18E/F, Block1)

For RCS 0.0001 m2 class target: 5~6 km+
For RCS 0.001 m2 class target: 10~11 km+
For RCS 0.1 m2 class target: 32~36 km+
For RCS 1.0 m2 class target: 56~64 km+
For RCS 5.0 m2 class target: 84~96 km+
For RCS 10.0 m2 class target: 100~114 km+

PS-05A (JAS-39 A/B/C/D)

For RCS 0.0001 m2 class target: 5~6 km+
For RCS 0.001 m2 class target: 9~10 km+
For RCS 0.1 m2 class target: 27~32 km+
For RCS 1.0 m2 class target: 48~56 km+
For RCS 5.0 m2 class target: 72~84 km+
For RCS 10.0 m2 class target: 85~100 km+

APG-68 V9 (F-16 C/D/I and RDY-2 iM2000-5MK2 and -9)

For RCS 0.0001 m2 class target: 4~5 km+
For RCS 0.001 m2 class target: 8~9 km+
For RCS 0.1 m2 class target: 25~30 km+
For RCS 1.0 m2 class target: 46~54 km+
For RCS 5.0 m2 class target: 66~80 km+
For RCS 10.0 m2 class target: 78~95 km+

RDY (M2000-5)

For RCS 0.0001 m2 class target: 4~5 km+
For RCS 0.001 m2 class target: 7~8 km+
For RCS 0.1 m2 class target: 22~27 km+
For RCS 1.0 m2 class target: 40~47 km+
For RCS 5.0 m2 class target: 60~70 km+
For RCS 10.0 m2 class target: 70~84 km+

APG-68 V5 (F-16 C/D)

For RCS 0.0001 m2 class target: 3~4 km+
For RCS 0.001 m2 class target: 6~7 km+
For RCS 0.1 m2 class target: 18~22 km+
For RCS 1.0 m2 class target: 32~40 km+
For RCS 5.0 m2 class target: 50~60 km+
For RCS 10.0 m2 class target: 60~72 km+

APG-67 V4 (T-50)

For RCS 0.0001 m2 class target: 3~4 km+
For RCS 0.001 m2 class target: 5~6 km+
For RCS 0.1 m2 class target: 17~20 km+
For RCS 1.0 m2 class target: 30~36 km+
For RCS 5.0 m2 class target: 45~53 km+
For RCS 10.0 m2 class target: 53~63 km+

**nutter** · 28 Jul 06,, 00:47

Originally Posted by uss

The Euro birds seem to be heavily hyped IMHO and should be at best marginally better than Russian counterparts like MiG 35.

Why is this? Just blind patriotism, or do you have evidence?

The US doesn't seem to be able to build a car with any sort of production quality (Euros are far better at this), why should *assumptions* (I presume you have no evidence) be any different about aircraft manufacture? :D

**dundonrl** · 03 Oct 10,, 06:28

Originally Posted by nutter

Why is this? Just blind patriotism, or do you have evidence?

The US doesn't seem to be able to build a car with any sort of production quality (Euros are far better at this), why should *assumptions* (I presume you have no evidence) be any different about aircraft manufacture? :D

are you sure that european automobile manufacturers are better, or is this just a hype that has carried one for awhile, reinforced by Jeremy Clarkston and his dislike of anything American..

for british cars.. Lucas electronics.. nuff said..

**Jimmy** · 03 Oct 10,, 15:34

For the most part, it's hype.

I'm sure nutter is still waiting anxiously for an answer to his question though, come on WAB!

**Monash** · 08 Oct 10,, 07:24

Quick question, given the heavily promoted stealth characteristics of the latest 4.5 to 5th generation fighters does anyone know what work (if any) is being done on pulse doppler radar/algorithm development for wake/turbulence detection - the idea being to try and detect the turbulence/wake created by a large object moving at high speed through the atmosphere rather than the aircraft itself?

**NUS** · 08 Oct 10,, 10:33

Originally Posted by Monash

Quick question, given the heavily promoted stealth characteristics of the latest 4.5 to 5th generation fighters does anyone know what work (if any) is being done on pulse doppler radar/algorithm development for wake/turbulence detection - the idea being to try and detect the turbulence/wake created by a large object moving at high speed through the atmosphere rather than the aircraft itself?

According to this article -
ctr.stanford.edu/~shariff/radar.pdf
RCS of large aircraft vortex wakes is about -60 dB m^2 (this is way below any plane RCS), so need to worry about them in my understanding.
You might also find this page interesting:
NASA Technical Reports Server