Wraith601

The fact the Navy doesn't like single engine planes is another strike against the carrier based F-16.

__________________
"We always have been, we are, and I hope that we always shall be, detested in France."
-Sir Arthur Wellesley

B.Smitty

Yeah it is a bit crazy.

At least the F-35C specs have been relatively well defined. All I've seen for the ST-21 is "roughly double the range of the F-14" (which model, it doesn't say).

I'm intentionally mixing intercept and strike capabilities because the need for the former depends on how close you have to get to do the later.

B.Smitty

Though they seem to have come around with the F-35C.

Wraith601

The Navy really has no choice, if it wants the money for a new fighter, it has to buy the JSF.

jgetti

Well, as far as improving C/D, it really was extended to max capacity, and most of those airframes are getting up there in years too No amount of investment was going to improve much upon what it is now. C/D didn't have sufficient subsystems to support the APG-79.

The F-14D's could have been kept around longer, but I think everyone's underestimating how long it's going to take to get JSF up and fully operational. Not many aircraft development programs have performed better than Super Hornet on a schedule basis, and it has taken us since 1995 to get where we are today,, and it hasn't been fully operational for long. We had to have new airframes in the equation at some point, because by the time (if) we do get JSF's operational on carrier decks, it's going to be quite down the line from now. If we had bled the F-14D's to death and equally bled the Hornets to death then we may have had a fleet out there, but I think you'd be surprised how much smaller the cost differential is.

TopHatter

Why thank you. I've lifted it directly off the VFA-14 website. If it grows on me, I'll keep it. Otherwise it's back to the other one.

Anon

LOL, yeah, right.

Anon

Explain the F-35C.(or any of dozens of other LEGENDARY single engine carrier planes)

Anon

The USN could opt for an all F-18 fleet.

I don't know why they'd want to...but they could.

Anon

Care to explain why our THOUSANDS of non-stealth F-15/16/18 jets are all extremely capable strikers despite having a large RCS?

Care to explain how it is our non-stealthy planes are crap, but the EF2000, Rafale, Gripen and SU30 are not?

I mean seriously, you guys get caught up WAY TOO MUCH with this stealth nonsense.

The ST-21 program was devised to give F-22 like flight performance(actually better in some ways because of the VG wings- probably especially in top end sprint speed), but with an RCS in the 1m2 vicinity. IOW, it would've been the 2d best fighter plane in the world.

The ST-21 was planned to be a FULL OUT high-end heavy fighter in the USN's hi-lo mix, and would've had the price tag to match. There is no reason whatsoever to expect that it would not have lived up to expectations.

You fellows that are talking smack about the ST-21, have you ever even looked up the planes planned performance figures? Short of the F-22 or a fully modified F-15 , it would've simply had no match.

ST-21 was NOT intended to fill JSFs role, to the contrary, it was intended to fill the F-14Ds outer air defense role while TAKING ON the deep strike role of the A-6(a role that the F-18E struggles in).

canoe

I could tell you why, *money*.

Gun Grape

Dumbass Marine that can read)

AIM-54C (you threw in the sealed/most recent version)

Development and production

http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/m-54.html


http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/missile/aim-54.htm (second source)
F-14D

http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevo...r_us/f014.html

http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/f14_5.html (and a ton of other places)



Development contract
First flight

http://www.topedge.com/alley/text/f14d/f14d.htm

or

Production
http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...4-variants.htm

Kill date
http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...4-variants.htm
So by 1989 we relized it was a waste of money.

Cancelled before it reached IOC

Anon

Yep. And that'd be about the only reason too...

IF the USN had it's way and was allowed to pursue it's own course(within reason) we'd be looking at:

PLAN A: flight decks full of NATFs, A-12s, S-3s, EA-6Cs(the EA was to get some of the A-6F upgrades), JSFs and E-2Cs.

Plan B: ST-21s backed by A-6Fs and JSF with S-3s, EA-6Cs, JSFs, and rounded out by the E-2C."

Note that in BOTH plans there is NOT A SINGLE HORNET ON A "FUTURE" US CARRIER DECK, and that the "Super" Hornet DOES NOT EVEN EXIST AT ALL.

What the USN got was plan C because by the time Cheyney was done his scorched earth campaign there was simply NOTHING ELSE LEFT TO BUY.

NATF- gone.
ST-21- gone.
F-14D- cancelled IN PRODUCTION
A-6E/F- gone
A-12- gone.

We bought F-18E/Fs because we SIMPLY HAD NO OTHER REASONABLE ALTERNATIVE.


Hell, we couldn't even consider a major F-14 upgrade at that point because all the plans, tooling, and know-how to build them was scattered to the four corners of the globe when Grumman simply folded and it's assets were liquidated.

We didn't build new-build advanced F-14s at that point because we COULDN'T build advanced F-14s(at least not for anything remotely resembling 'reasonable').

The entire fiasco goes all the way back to the A-12 program, and that program is STILL costing us money in litigation costs. And god forbid Northrup should ever actually get it's day in court. The cash reward with punitive damages will be astronomical if that day ever comes.

Of course some will tell you we MEANT TO DO ALL THAT(or that it was for the best), and that the NATF, ST-21, A-6F, A-12, S-3 et all are/were not needed. And indeed that the F-14D and S-3 are also not needed.

That ALL BY ITSELF the AEFK-18E/F/G can perform every single mission ever imagined, and do it not just WELL, but BETTER than planes SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED TO FILL EACH UNIQUE ROLE.

That is, if don't they try to sell you on the ridiculous notion that entire missions areas just evaporated overnight.

Yep, fixed wing ASW, the outer air battle, deep interdiction/strike, dedicated carrier tanker, and interceptor ALL just suddenly evaporated because the F-18E/F is the only plane the USN can afford to keep around any more(and in greatly diminished numbers on greatly diminished numbers of much emptier flight decks).

Those people, those "company yes men", are total god-damned morons.

And they know who they are.

Anon

Well let's see there GUN GRAPE:

F-14D FIRST DELIVERY:

1990

http://www.anft.net/f-14/f14-history-f14d.htm

IOC achieved:

1992

http://www.anft.net/f-14/f14-history-f14d.htm

AIM-54C/Sealed achieves IOC:

1988

(i had listed 1991, so was incorrect. I got that from a bad source apparently)
http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/m-54.html
(PS: I used the AIM-54C ECCM SEALED because it was the last version, and it was a huge upgrade over the earlier AIM-54C).

F-14D first tested with all new purpose designed DFCS:

1995

http://www.topedge.com/alley/images/f14d/f14dfcim.htm

F-14D fleet upgraded with DFCS:

1998

http://www.topedge.com/alley/images/f14d/f14dfcim.htm

F-14D upgraded for JDAM

2003.
http://www.defenselink.mil/releases/..._bt129-03.html

Other major F-14D upgrades:

"Present upgrades for the F-14D are centred on the Block 1 upgrade which will introduce GPS sytems, AN/ARC-210 radios, the capability to carry the AN/ALE-50 towed decoy"(these were subsequently all installed, some at great expense)

http://www.topedge.com/alley/text/f14d/f14d.htm



And, Ummmmm, if 'the USN knew the Tomcat was a Waste of money in 1989'....why did they wait 17 years to retire it AFTER FIRST installing several more extremely expensive upgrades along the way?

Hell, the First F-14D WASN'T EVEN DELIVERED UNTIL 1990!!!!!

The very premise of your argument is AN OBVIOUS FALSEHOOD.

Are you REALLY this big a yes man that you're going to sit here and blow steaming shiit up the boards collective asss?

The F-14 was cancelled because of DICK CHEYNEY, and because of DICK CHEYNEY ALONE.(actually, grumman's legendary arrogance sure didn't help i'm sure).

Stop, end of story. The USN FREAKED when he pulled the plug.

Gun Grape

Not the Navy, Congress, the military NEVER thinks any program is a waste of money. Thats why we have civilians in charge. A little adult leadership.

If you got them hanging around, might as well make them compatable with the new weapons and avionics that the Navy had progressed to.

We update OHPs even though we knew they were going away. We would do the same to airplanes as well.

However the NAVY only waited until 1991 to cancel a already funded production contract of the F-14D

From:
http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...4-variants.htm

The final blow fell in mid-February 1991 when the Navy cancelled an already-funded $780 million contract for 12 remanufactured F-14, effectively ending further production

I guess they seemed satisfied enough with the F-18C and saw more growth potential in it than old F-14s

Then Dick Cheney was a hell of a man. You blame him for alot. Less than 1 month on the job and he, alone convinces the President and Congress that the F-14 D isn't necessary.

The Navy showed that they didn't want or need the plane in 1991.