Computing power and Stealth

**gf0012-aust** · 31 May 06,, 18:27

Originally Posted by highsea

Hi Gary, nice to see you here.

Do you think HFSWR will gain the capability to accurately track high altitude targets? I know the US currently uses it for drug interdiction, but that is typically against sea skimming targets operating under the normal radar screen.

Thx

Probably not - at least not at current tech levels. HFSWR and its derivatives are probably better for LO cruise missiles etc...

As a companion solution maybe, but thats still probably the province of OTHR and depending on what altitudes, maybe space based radar solutions might have greater currency.

The issue for OTHR is it provides greater absolute range - and that means the incoming have to come in "higher" further out if they're trying to avoid AWACs etc.... For an AWACs to achieve the same kind of interrogative capability it means using arrays that not only look out and down, but also out and up. Thats some serious power consumption.

Realistically, I'm wondering whether high alt "persistent" stealth platforms (ie capable of trans-national or intercontinental range) would be better covered off by companion systems such space based radar or "black sky" radar based solutions + AWACS for overlap, to provide "decent" and persistent coverage. (??)

besides, you're the radar guy

- this stuff is still black magic mumbo jumbo when it gets complicated.

**Shadowsided** · 31 May 06,, 19:59

Originally Posted by PubFather

Interesting article - thank you. With regards to your comments...

I appreciate that bi-static radars would be limited in range - but naturally they would only be a part of the overall radar network; as a defence for high value targets such as airfields.

The key point is lots of receivers, making it harder to knock out the whole network, except by vast expenditure of JASSM or other cruise missiles.

No just easier targets for me to make gaps inever hear of submunitions like the WCMD those will help kill Bi static networks or at least make gaps.They still have huge problems such as coordinating signals and not being blinded.

I'm sure any of the above are possible. But, again, so might the techs to detect it. For the Raptor to rely solely on EOTS would make the playing field between it and even 4.5 gen aircraft much more level. And thats before we start talking about conformal smart skin arrays.

I have heard of JASSM and although difficult to stop - not impossible.
Besides, one of the greatest uses of stealth is as a SEAD weapon - now we are back to where we started with stand-off cruise weapons that are launched in a non-stealthy way (i.e from wing mounted pylons)...

Long wave radars have big problems at low level and B-2 can carry JASSM internally.

Jammers can be shot down - ever heard of "home on jam?"

Ever hear of a standoff jammer out of the range of SAMS

Not outside of Science Fiction. No.

The US is working on it should be here in like 10 years. It's already possible for farmers to use special planes to make rain.

Modern missile tracker are "imaging systems" not like the old heat-seekers, capable of all angle intercept. I believe that some are capable of tracking across the visual spectrum - far ir into ultra-violet. Unless its invisible (through a cloaking shield, perhaps of Romulan design) it will still be detectable.

True but still degraded in bad weather. Im interested in the UV one's can i see a link.

Unless the new propulsion system works on a radical new system - anti-gravity, warp, telekinesis - I suspect it will produce some form of heat..

Maybe maybe not. The idea is to emit very little heat so it won't be identified as a target.

Anyways this is getting really silly now.. lol

Pretty much

**PubFather** · 31 May 06,, 22:17

Originally Posted by highsea

It sounds analogous to the "n" body problem to me, lol. Perhaps theoretically solvable, but not in practice.

The target is moving relative to both the emitter and the receiver, which is also in motion relative to the emitter and the target. In 3 axes each, with 6 degrees of freedom of motion (7 if you count changes in velocity) for both the target and the receiver.

This is an extremely complicated problem to solve. I think even with the most powerful computers, by the time you process a single return, it's next week. That's assuming you can even invent the math!

When you put it like that - I take your point lol - it is excessively complex. Would it definitively preclude a "detect" vector? (I'm a radar dunce, please forgive me lol)...

Urmomma - I think we have reached to agree to disagree point lol.. we are getting too far in realms of SF to continue this discussion - interesting as it has been... I forget where I saw the UV info but will find it shortly - I think it is a fairly standard part of the new gen WVR missiles though

Although we never got around to discussing the potential of conformal smart skin arrays... maybe another day...

**hello** · 01 Jun 06,, 06:48

Originally Posted by urmomma158

No just easier targets for me to make gaps inever hear of submunitions like the WCMD those will help kill Bi static networks or at least make gaps.They still have huge problems such as coordinating signals and not being blinded.

Long wave radars have big problems at low level and B-2 can carry JASSM internally.

Ever hear of a standoff jammer out of the range of SAMS

The US is working on it should be here in like 10 years. It's already possible for farmers to use special planes to make rain.

True but still degraded in bad weather. Im interested in the UV one's can i see a link.

Maybe maybe not. The idea is to emit very little heat so it won't be identified as a target.

Pretty much

" Long wave radars have big problems at low level and B-2 can carry JASSM internally."

B-2s(How many times will I have to repeat this) WILL NOT DO SEAD/DEAD missions!!! They're heavy bombers, not ground attack fighters! They attack the target, not the target's defenses. And they have only 3 bases in the whole world!

" Ever hear of a standoff jammer out of the range of SAMS"

EB-52 was cancelled! EA-18G has a super-small range. Predator is worse.

On your previous post,

F-22A does not have EOTS. F-22A does not embark JASSM or even JSOW. F-22 does not carry WCMD either. F-35 all versions can only carry JASSM externally, and JSOW is not stealthy. However, F-35A/C can carry upto 4 WCMDs internally and use it's EOTS to designate their targets. Both F-22 and F-35 can carry SDB, which you forgot.

**B.Smitty** · 01 Jun 06,, 11:37

Originally Posted by hello

B-2s(How many times will I have to repeat this) WILL NOT DO SEAD/DEAD missions!!! They're heavy bombers, not ground attack fighters! They attack the target, not the target's defenses. And they have only 3 bases in the whole world!

I believe they actually did do DEAD strikes over Yugoslavia. Not entire DEAD missions, mind you, just hitting the occasional SAM site.

Originally Posted by hello

However, F-35A/C can carry upto 4 WCMDs internally and use it's EOTS to designate their targets. Both F-22 and F-35 can carry SDB, which you forgot.

F-35s will only be able to carry 2 WCMDs internally, IIRC.

**hello** · 01 Jun 06,, 13:46

"I believe they actually did do DEAD strikes over Yugoslavia. Not entire DEAD missions, mind you, just hitting the occasional SAM site."

Really? Can you provide a source? B-2s and F-117s fly a strict flight path and mission plan, only destroying what they are authorized to. B-2s do not attack targets of oppurtunity, unlike the CALCM-slinging B-52s of modern day which can't do anything but shoot CALCMs while flying in circles over friendly territory. If it wasn't for that missile, the B-52 would have been retired by now.

F-35Bs will only carry 2 WCMDs in their bays. A and C versions can take 4, with a twin pack on each main internal pylon, though it might cause interference with the bay-door mounted AMRAAM/ASRAAMs. Even if it does end up carrying only 2 operationally, WCMD would only be used by the F-35 in CAS(SDB would be used everywhere else), a mission which doesn't need stealth, which may be part of the reason why the very unstealthy Hog will be in frontline CAS service until 2028 or beyond. In that case, external pylons will be used. In all missions which require stealth or would be easier with stealth, the F-35 will carry 8 SDBs/2 JSOWs and 2 AMRAAMs internally. (I don't know what "IIRC" stands for, can you give the full form?

)

**Shadowsided** · 01 Jun 06,, 18:13

Originally Posted by hello

" Long wave radars have big problems at low level and B-2 can carry JASSM internally."

B-2s(How many times will I have to repeat this) WILL NOT DO SEAD/DEAD missions!!! They're heavy bombers, not ground attack fighters! They attack the target, not the target's defenses. And they have only 3 bases in the whole world!

" Ever hear of a standoff jammer out of the range of SAMS"

EB-52 was cancelled! EA-18G has a super-small range. Predator is worse.

On your previous post,

F-22A does not have EOTS. F-22A does not embark JASSM or even JSOW. F-22 does not carry WCMD either. F-35 all versions can only carry JASSM externally, and JSOW is not stealthy. However, F-35A/C can carry upto 4 WCMDs internally and use it's EOTS to designate their targets. Both F-22 and F-35 can carry SDB, which you forgot.

I know the EB-52 was cancelled but im simply pointing out a feasible concept and one of the Raptor's future upgrades is gonna be an IRST. B-2's can do SEAD if required ever hear of the Global Task/Strike force.

**hello** · 01 Jun 06,, 18:39

Hooray, you'll be depending on your 21 silver-bullet B-2s to do the dirty work of SEAD with it's wopper deployability from 3 whole bases on the face of this planet.

B-2s will only need to do SEAD if the Raptor gets removed and cancelled, F-35 gets cancelled, UCAV gets cancelled, and the F-15SG and FA-18E/F become frontline fighters. Using 2.2 billion dollar B-2s for SEAD looks like desperation to me.

**Shadowsided** · 02 Jun 06,, 02:17

Originally Posted by hello

Hooray, you'll be depending on your 21 silver-bullet B-2s to do the dirty work of SEAD with it's wopper deployability from 3 whole bases on the face of this planet.

B-2s will only need to do SEAD if the Raptor gets removed and cancelled, F-35 gets cancelled, UCAV gets cancelled, and the F-15SG and FA-18E/F become frontline fighters. Using 2.2 billion dollar B-2s for SEAD looks like desperation to me.

No just stating the air force's plans. http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3a9a69082ec7.htm

Enjoy.

Just saying it's a consideration.