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Thread: Analysts call Raptor a failure

  1. #1
    Resident Curmudgeon Military Professional Gun Grape's Avatar
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    Analysts call Raptor a failure

    A copy of the article I spoke about another thread. From the Panama City News Herald

    TITLE:Analysts call Raptor a failure
    SECTION:Local
    PUBDATE:April 10, 2006
    HEADLINE:Analysts call Raptor a failure
    BYLINE:By Ed Offley

    TEXT:

    It was the most impressive fighter aircraft seen to date.
    Designed around a breakthrough technology, it was heavily armed with the latest air-to-air weapons and was capable of flying faster than its enemies and destroying previously invulnerable enemy aircraft.

    One British pilot called it “the most formidable fighter” that the world had seen to date. Its pilots said it was a delight to fly.

    Yet military historians today say the German Messerschmidt 262 fighter had little effect on the air war over Europe during World War II, and two military aviation experts last week warned that the U.S. Air Force likely has set itself up to repeat the harsh lesson of the Me-262 “Stormbird” in a future conflict against an adversary with a modern air force.

    Simply put, said Pierre Sprey and James P. Stevenson, the F-22 Raptor is shaping up to be the Sturmvogel of the 21st century: a dazzling piece of technology that fatally ignores some of the unbending realities of aerial combat.

    On surface, the Raptor debate ended six months ago. After years of controversy, the Air Force and Defense Department reached a final agreement on the Raptor program, with DoD and Congress approving full production of the stealth fighter while capping the program at 183 aircraft, a 50-percent reduction of the 381 planes that the service had long said it needed at a minimum.

    For Tyndall Air Force Base, where the Raptor pilot training program is located, this has meant a reduction in training squadrons from two to one, with 29 of the sleek fighters to be used in preparing pilots for combat units.

    But to Sprey, a founding member of the so-called “fighter mafia” group that during the 1960s and 1970s ramrodded the F-15, F-16 and A-10 programs into being despite fierce internal opposition, and military author Stevenson, who has written extensively on the Navy’s F/A-18 and A-12 fighters, the Air Force has created a major crisis in its future combat capability by sticking to the Raptor program.
    The two analysts presented their stark findings to a symposium at the nonprofit Center for Defense Information on Friday in Washington, D.C. The two analysts provided their findings to The News Herald, and Sprey elaborated on the issues in a telephone interview.

    Sprey said his briefing focused on the time-tested factors that define an effective fighter plane: (1) See the enemy first; (2) outnumber the enemy; (3) outmaneuver the enemy to fire, and (4) kill the enemy quickly.

    “The Raptor is a horrible failure on almost every one of those criteria,” Sprey said.
    The stellar attribute of the F-22 — its invisibility on enemy radar due to a computer-aided stealth design — is a “myth,” Sprey said. That is because in order to locate the enemy beyond visual range, the Raptor (like every other fighter) must turn on its own radar, immediately betraying its location.

    Nor is the aircraft design effective simply because its advocates insist so, Sprey said. The 1980s-era F-117 stealth fighter was supposed to be invisible too, but post-Gulf War studies showed that the aircraft had been spotted by Iraq’s ground-based radars, he said.

    And in the 77-day aerial campaign against Serbia in 1999, the adversary’s “s-era radar” managed to locate and shoot down two F-117s, Stevenson pointed out in his presentation. The situation is actually worse today, he said, because many nations have acquired advanced missiles that can home in on radar emissions.
    “Who do you want in a dark alley?” Stevenson asked. “The cop with the flashlight, or the crook with a gun that fires light-homing bullets?”

    Because the Raptor ultimately ballooned into a weapon that costs $361 million per copy, even Congress could not stomach the total program cost exceeding $65 billion, Sprey said. As a result, the Air Force is now committed to fielding a fighter program that lacks sufficient numbers to prevail in a major conflict, however effective the individual aircraft may be.

    “Hitler had 70 Me-262s in combat,” Sprey said. “They were crushed by the force of 2,000 inferior P-51s that the United States had in the air.”

    Early reports from mock deployments of the Raptor also show a major shortfall in the fighter’s sustainability in combat, Sprey said.

    “The F-16 costs one-tenth of the F-22 and flies three times as often due to the issues of stealth, complexity and maintenance affecting the Raptor,” Sprey said. Sustainability and the number of aircraft available to fight on any given day, he added, are “vastly more important” than the quality of the F-22. “You have to have numerical superiority to win.”

    On the last two points, maneuverability and capability for a “quick kill,” the two analysts assert that the Raptor is inferior to the F-16 and several allied fighter designs in the crucible of “energymaneuverability.”

    “Some (experts) assert that in the next air war,” all of the radars will be off and the air war will merge to air combat maneuvering,” Stevenson observed.
    The Raptor’s performance in that mode will be “disastrous,” Sprey added.

    “The only thing that will bail the U.S. Air Force out of this mess is the fact that they still have a lot of F-16s in service,” Sprey said, “The day they send the F-16s to the ‘boneyard’ is the day the service becomes a non-Air Force.”
    These 2 have been against every program since the F-16.

    I wonder if they have talked to any of the pilots, both Raptor and the 16 pilots that have flown against them?
    Last edited by Gun Grape; 13 Apr 06, at 01:05.
    Its called Tourist Season. So why can't we shoot them?

  2. #2
    Contributor The_Burning_Kid's Avatar
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    What a loony is all I have to say.

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    Death, the Destroyer of Worlds... Senior Contributor -{SpoonmaN}-'s Avatar
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    Man as capable as the Raptor is, 180 is just not enough.
    Apparently we're only buying 59 M-1s for our Army though so I guess the USAF isnt the only organisation with these problems.

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    Military Professional canoe's Avatar
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    This guy is making no sense at all.

    Alot of his assumptions are contradicted by recent air combat history.

    His assumption that the next major airwar will be fought without using radars is also rediculus. If one side switches its radars off its blind and can not effectively engage the other side. He seems to think air warfare is heading back to the days of aerial dogfighting again.

    And to pick out his own points on the required abilities to be an effective fighter:
    (1) See the enemy first
    The F22 has the most advanced fighter radar in the world at the moment I don't see the problem, even if its stealth abilities are completely compromised its still an extremely lethal long range fighter.

    (2) outnumber the enemy
    I'll have to give him this point given the cost of the F22.

    (3) outmaneuver the enemy to fire
    The F22 is very manouverable for a fighter of its size and range. It could be better but you'd have to sacrifice either stealth or range to acheive it.

    (4) kill the enemy quickly
    Again the F22 is probably the most efficent long range killer in the air today.

  5. #5
    Contributor The_Burning_Kid's Avatar
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    Also, who does he expect to have numerical supremacy in this world? Russia? No. China? No. India? No.

    Even if we have 180 Raptors, who has so many fighters that they can match up to the Raptor 1:5 and more? No one and that is not likely to change in the future. Combine that with our large fleet of F-35s and you can see that his assumptions are full of crack. Even with 180 Raptors we can take care of almost all foreign threats. Also considering that the US has a little less than 500 F-15s in service, each Raptor is capable of beating 5 of these, so in terms of capability with 180 Raptors we have more capability than with our current fleet of F-15s.

    Food for thought.

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    Official Thread Jacker Senior Contributor gunnut's Avatar
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    That guy is a fricken idiot.

    Comparing the Me-262 to the F-22 is poor at best, outright lie at worst. Germany in 1945 had no fuel, not enough trained pilots, and facing 20:1 odds in just about every single air to air engagement. Germany lost not because the Me-262 was a failure. Far from it, the Me-262 was an outstanding success. Germany lost because there were 3 million allied troops knocking down the door inside the Reich.

    “The Raptor is a horrible failure on almost every one of those criteria,” Sprey said.
    The stellar attribute of the F-22 — its invisibility on enemy radar due to a computer-aided stealth design — is a “myth,” Sprey said. That is because in order to locate the enemy beyond visual range, the Raptor (like every other fighter) must turn on its own radar, immediately betraying its location.
    I can't believe Sprey could be so ignorant of the fact that F-22 doesn't need its own radar to locate the enemy. AWACS? Datalink to other Raptors? Datalink to surface based radars? Hello?

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    Apparently the critics have never heard of LPI, JTIDS Link-16, or IRST/FLIR.

    That article was a waste of the 14 seconds of my life it took me to dismiss it as garbage, lol.

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    That's about what I'd expect to read in the News Herald. Its garbage almost from the first line. There are things in there that are flat out WRONG.

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    Yet again more raptor critics that dont know squat about the plane or modern military tech quite sad really.

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    Military Professional Sandman's Avatar
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    I thought the F-22's radar had a 'frequency hopping' capability which made it difficult to impossible to detect as well? This guy has not done any homework if I can punch a hole in his premis with a capability of the F-22 he has so blatently ignored, so it doesn't deserve any effort on my part to look it up as well. It isn't worth the effort. He must have an agenda.
    Last edited by Sandman; 15 Apr 06, at 12:36.

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    ^^^ Yes sandman it does use frequency hopping which is something the author forgot! lol what a stupid article the critics have to do better than that!

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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Burning_Kid
    Also considering that the US has a little less than 500 F-15s in service, each Raptor is capable of beating 5 of these, so in terms of capability with 180 Raptors we have more capability than with our current fleet of F-15s.

    Food for thought.
    I strongly disagree with this. Simulations show the F-22 can defeat F-15's in numbers such as these. Even if their 'simulations' are realistic, this is assuming all of these F-15's are in close enough proximity of the F-22 that it can engage. In realistic war scenerios enemy aircraft aren't always going to be in close enough proximity, much less the same theater, that the F-22's can even attempt to engage all of them.

    Second, we can't EVER assume that all these aircraft will be flight ready at the same time,, especially when LO has to be maintained. Reliability and Maintainability are always going to take some active aircraft out of the equation.

    Third, if it were me, there's no way in hell that I'd be using aircraft of that value as my workhorse flying sorties 24/7, 365 days a year,, wartime or not, they're too valuable.

    Bottom line, even if the F-22 is this capable, 180 simply isn't enough,, not by a long shot. Numbers matter a LOT more than F-22 proponents are willing to admit. There is going to have to be more aircraft to fill in the gaps PERIOD, be they F-22's, F-35's, F-15's or some other aircraft,, there HAS to be more of them.
    Last edited by jgetti; 26 Apr 06, at 17:55.

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    Official Thread Jacker Senior Contributor gunnut's Avatar
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    F-22 will probably be used as shock troops to clear the skies for hordes of F-35s, F-15Es, and F-16s. F-35 will be the workhorse of the airforce.

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    F-22s will hunt down AWACS and tankers, once they're dealt with the enemies' frontline fighters are much less of a threat.
    "We always have been, we are, and I hope that we always shall be, detested in France."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith601
    F-22s will hunt down AWACS and tankers, once they're dealt with the enemies' frontline fighters are much less of a threat.
    I know the F22 is stealthy but I think the point stands that stealth doesnt = invisible and attacking AWACS birds/and or ground based radar/sams in a SEAD role would be an incredibly risky one.

    An opponent with AWACS birds is not going to leave them undefended and a number of nations are working on signal processing that futher reduce the effectiveness of stealth - again I think it comes down to numbers F22 is superb but almost too expensive to risk?

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