su30mki117

The first bilateral dissimilar air combat (DACT) exercise between the U.S. Air Force and the Indian air force in more than 40 years, Cope India 2004, took place at Gawalior, India in Feb this year.
Reportedly, the exercise found mention in the Senate Appropriations defense subcommittee in March when Air Force Chief of Staff Gen. John Jumper stated that the results of Cope India were "very revealing". He did not elaborate. Earlier, Rep. Duke Cunningham (R-CA) said in a Feb. 26 House Appropriations defense subcommittee hearing that U.S. F-15Cs were defeated more than 90 percent of the time in direct combat exercises against the IAF!
These are startling assertions, to say the least! Are they true? is the question doing the rounds on Internet forums frequented by Fighter Flying enthusiasts.
I have no intention of attempting to answer that question. Instead, what I will do is attempt to put it in the right perspective. In doing so, my hope is to make the question irrelevant.
While the Internet is an excellent source of information, it is not always a reliable source of information. It is always a good idea to be skeptical about anything published on the internet that does not originate on an official website or does not refer to a verifiable source. And by that logic, what I say here should also be treated with due skepticism. For the purpose of this article I will assume that the congressional report being cited on internet forums is indeed authentic.
A Broad Perspective


The US armed forces are primarily equipped and trained for intervention around the globe, not for homeland security. It is very difficult for anyone to conceive of a situation where US troops will be asked to defend their homeland. As such, US strategic thinkers appreciate that relying on human motivation to win a conflict in a distant part of the globe is not practical. Consequently, the mindset is to always fight a war from a position of overwhelming material advantage so as to minimize casualties. Material losses are a concern for the US armed forces, but only because they temporarily reduce their material advantage, not because they result in a financial squeeze. Indeed, increased consumption of material assets by the armed forces can invigorate the US economy! However, human losses are a huge concern because they can result in rapid weakening of public support for the intervention. Recent history has seen the US concede defeat to puny Vietnam just because its public was not prepared to accept any further loss of US lives.
The Indian armed forces are primarily equipped and trained for homeland security and engage the enemy only to keep the enemy at bay. Indian strategic thinkers can, therefore, count on high motivation levels of its troops. The public too is more accepting of high casualty rates under these circumstances. The Kargil conflict was a manifestation of what I am saying. The Indian commanders had the option to choose between human or material assets to win the heights back from the enemy. The fact that they chose the former was foolhardy but illustrative. The US will never commit its troops to battle under similar circumstances.
For India, material losses are the huge concern. This is so because most of the material assets used by our armed forces originate abroad and are purchased using scarce foreign exchange. High material losses result not just in a tactical paucity but can result in a long term degradation of the country’s ability to wage war and a serious weakening of its economy.
Cope India 2004 Perspective
In the context of what we discussed above, it should be clear to us that the US pilots are not primed to engage the enemy on a level playing field. If they did so they would not be assured of a victory. They are primed to engage only when they enjoy an overwhelming superiority. For them, only abject desperation will justify an engagement on a level playing field!
This is not to suggest that the USAF pilots do not train to fight on a level playing field. They do, and that is why they came to Gawalior.
A USAF pilot relies on the electronics within his aircraft to tilt the odds in his favor. Some of you may wonder, why just the electronics, why not the better maneuverability of its fighters? The answer is simple. While US fighters are without compare when it comes to the combination of electronics and maneuverability, when it comes to maneuverability alone, they are not always the best! In visual combat a Mig 21 Bis and Mirage 2000 could give a tough time to an F-16 or F-15C. A Mig29 will most likely out maneuver them and a Su-30K or Su-30MKI, with its vectored thrust and super maneuverability, will most certainly chew them up.

For USAF F-15C pilots, like the ones that participated in Cope Thunder, a typical air defense mission would start of as a long-range patrol under control of an AWACS that is looking deep into enemy territory. The AWACS will pick up an enemy attack much before it crossed the border. It would guide the F-15Cs to an intercept feeding them positional data over telemetry. Around a hundred miles or so from the enemy fighters the F-15Cs would switch on their own individual radars, acquire the enemy aircraft and launch their long-range air-to-air missiles.
In the rare case where enemy aircraft are able to continue with the attack the F-15Cs would continue for a close in engagement provided they enjoyed a clear cut numerical advantage or were opposed by less maneuverable aircraft. If that is not the case, they would head home and allow other air defense assets to take on the attacking aircraft.
The Playing Field at Gawalior

During Cope India 2004 the USAF F-15Cs were tasked with the defense of Gawalior AF Base. The Indian Air Forces aircraft were tasked with attacking Gawalior. Miarage 2000s, Su-30Ks, MiG-29 and MiG-21 Bis escorted the Indian strike force consisting of MiG-27s. For some reason, possibly security concerns raised by the Indians, the F-15Cs operated without an AWACS. That one factor probably leveled the playing field for the Americans
Forced to rely on Indian ground radars and / or their own airborne radars the F-15Cs must have felt crippled. Their misery was probably compounded by the fact that the attack force enjoyed overwhelming numerical superiority. The F-15C pilots would have been easily overwhelmed by multiple targets detected minutes before they came into visual range.
Yet another factor against them must have been the fact that the cream of the Indian Air Force mans Mirage, MiG-29 and Su-30 squadrons. These squadrons constitute our most valuable and limited assets. On the other hand the F-15C is the workhorse aircraft in the USAF.

HistoricalDavid

About two years too late.

Jay

Not again

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A grain of wheat eclipsed the sun of Adam !!

hammer

Troll Alert!.

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Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie!'...till you can find a rock. ;)

cooldw57

everybody find your cover!

Vig

The very simple answer is.........no.

But this is just beating a dead horse.

Franco Lolan

Apart from F-22's, Indian Su-30mki's are superior to any US fighter, and their pilots get more flying hours than any eagle squadron.

Jimmy

Some of their pilots. Their elite, who were at least as good as the US pilots in Cope India. Their best against our typical rotation.

BenRoethig

He also misses the point of training exercises.

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F/A-18E/F Super Hornet: The Honda Accord of fighters.

shadow

Wrong...

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it's better to lead than to follow

ajaybhutani

for gods sake it was just a training exercise .. an exercise to learn from each other not to find out whos better.

Jay

wrong, wrong and wrong. India does not have a radar equivalent to the APG series, I can go on with some missiles, but whats the point?

Captain Drunk

Unless you laid a bet upon whos the best and won

urmomma158

remebr the details of the exercse dont clebrate just yet.

avon1944

A DEAD HORSE!
One can not say from the exercises. Whereas virtually nothing has been said about the Israeli Indian Air Force exercise, it is difficult to tell how well the F-16 stacks up against the Su-30's.

In COPE INDIA, not all the pilots were "top guns" the India AF did use a cross section of pilots from highly experienced to relatively inexperienced but, all were well diciplined.
Read this article from Aviation Leak (10/04/04 Pg 50).
www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1237790/posts

The F-22 is definitely superior to the Su-30 but, the F-15K has what it takes to maintain a positive kill ratio to the Sukhois. A British study was done comparing the Su-35 to the emerging aircraft from the west. The study showed the "F-15C+" an upgraded F-15C with AESA and Sidewinder-9X with the HMDS able to maintain a 1.5:1 kill ratio against the Su-35! In essence it is parity but, it indicates the F-15 would not be just a set of targets.
The Sukhois have a real maneuver advantage but, the avionics the F-15 is designed for quick killing and the ROE's took that away.
While the world consentrated on the fighter competition, that was only a small part of the total exercise. Exchanges were made in logistics, support of an airbase during war time, high tempo operations, etc.

Not to make excuses the F-15 pilots were operational interceptor pilots and their commander said, they don't train against aircraft with ARH missiles like the Adder or MICA of which the Indian AF was allowed to simulate.
The only accurate evaluation of capabilities of air forces is to allow aggressor pilots to compete, just that simple. There would be no excuse that the pilots were not trained or, did not get enough flying time, etc.

Indeed, it was just a training or exchange exercise with little simularity with the real world the USAF would face.

COPE INDIA did its job, to gather support for the need for the F-22 and continue the monetary support. Congress for the most part, ignorant of technical and military matters did not understand ROE's and the part it played in the exercise.

Adrian