FACE/OFF : “Topgun” USN F-14 vs. USAF F-15

Captain Drunk · 03-02-2006, 12:38 PM

Since the days of Korea and Vietnam, most air campaigns finally turned out to be an all-US Navy show with Corsair, Phantom and Tomcat missions being the order of the day even more than the regular USAF fighters. Map studies combined with knowledge of geopolitical restrictions further showed that carrier assets, primarily the F-14, were just about the U.S.'s best option.

But the Navy’s supreme F-14s and USAF F-15s are in the same team. Now lets suppose they were fighting it off against each other in a highly competitive dogfight. Which one would win F-14 or F-15?

Captain Drunk · 03-02-2006, 12:41 PM

I’d vote that F-14 wins the battle as :

1. Like the Flanker, an F-14’s pilot has his strategic WSO (Weapons System Officer).

2. Like Su-30 and Mig-29, F-14s have a powerful IRST for better enemy target detection upto 200 km away, something unavailable with the F-15.

3. Like the Flanker with the R-77RVV-AE-PD, it also has a deadly long-range missile - the AIM 54 Phoneix, again something an F-15 dosn't have.

Wraith601 · 03-02-2006, 14:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Drunk

Since the days of Korea and Vietnam, most air campaigns finally turned out to be an all-US Navy show with Corsair, Phantom and Tomcat missions being the order of the day even more than the regular USAF fighters. Map studies combined with knowledge of geopolitical restrictions further showed that carrier assets, primarily the F-14, were just about the U.S.'s best option.

Afghanistan, Iraq (both times) and Kosovo were all Navy shows? Guess I missed that.

leib10 · 03-02-2006, 18:43 PM

I remember some time back the F-14 beat the F-15 49 out of 50 times- in the Air Force's own simulators.

Captain Drunk · 03-03-2006, 02:07 AM

I remember that too, another reason for Tomcat supremacy, while in January of 1979 an Iranian F-14 Phoenix is said to have hit a target drone at a range of 212 km during training.

kNikS · 03-03-2006, 07:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wraith601

Afghanistan, Iraq (both times) and Kosovo were all Navy shows? Guess I missed that.

Better not mention Kosovo… only show there was by NATO spokesman since the casualties of VJ were less than minimal.

Amen to our camouflage discipline.

Captain Drunk · 03-03-2006, 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wraith601

Afghanistan, Iraq (both times) and Kosovo were all Navy shows? Guess I missed that.

I'm sure F-14s flew more missions than any other F-16 or F-15 in all air campaigns worldwide and "Black Aces" F-14s from USS Theodore Roosevelt literally owned the night over Kosovo. Between 06 April and 09 June, CVW-8 fighters flew 4,270 total sorties and 3,055 combat sorties with zero losses in Kosovo.

Jimmy · 03-03-2006, 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Drunk

I’d vote that F-14 wins the battle as :

1. Like the Flanker, an F-14’s pilot has his strategic WSO (Weapons System Officer).

2. Like Su-30 and Mig-29, F-14s have a powerful IRST for better enemy target detection upto 200 km away, something unavailable with the F-15.

3. Like the Flanker with the R-77RVV-AE-PD, it also has a deadly long-range missile - the AIM 54 Phoneix, again something an F-15 dosn't have.

You overestimate the ranges on all those things, except the Phoenix which can be defeated by an F-15.

Its going to come down to the pilot. If the F-15 can defeat the AIM-54, he's probably going to win. He's got a better chance at defeating it than the F-14 has at evading an AIM-120.

If the fight goes into the merge, the Tomcat wins. But in a BVR fight, I'd put my money on the Eagle.

leib10 · 03-03-2006, 10:26 AM

No chance in hell an Eagle is going to win in BVR. Phoenix is a hard missile to beat, even by a fighter. I say it has a better chance up close, where it could use its greater available power and better maneuverability to its advantage.

hello · 03-03-2006, 12:24 PM

The F-14's Phoenix travels at Mach 5 while the F-15's AMRAAM at Mach 4 from half distance. However, the AMRAAM is more maneuverable than the Phoenix. If the F-15 can dodge the Phoenix and get in AMRAAM range, it gets the advantage. If the F-14 dodges the AMRAAM and gets WVR, the F-15 can win easily. However, now with Raptor vs Superbug, the equality the F14 and F-15 had is replaced with the clear superiority of the F-22.

jgetti · 03-03-2006, 13:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leibstandarte10

No chance in hell an Eagle is going to win in BVR. Phoenix is a hard missile to beat, even by a fighter. I say it has a better chance up close, where it could use its greater available power and better maneuverability to its advantage.

If Phoenix is as good as everyone says, we could put it on bi-planes and still be the world's top air-superiority fighter....

Anon · 03-03-2006, 14:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jimmy

You overestimate the ranges on all those things, except the Phoenix which can be defeated by an F-15.

Its going to come down to the pilot. If the F-15 can defeat the AIM-54, he's probably going to win. He's got a better chance at defeating it than the F-14 has at evading an AIM-120.

If the fight goes into the merge, the Tomcat wins. But in a BVR fight, I'd put my money on the Eagle.

Defeat a phoenix how?

Beaming? I don't think so...

BVR F-14Ds would dominate. In close the F-15C is a much more agile aircraft.

Anon · 03-03-2006, 14:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jgetti

If Phoenix is as good as everyone says, we could put it on bi-planes and still be the world's top air-superiority fighter....

As long as it had a bangin' asss radar and the ROE restricted it to extreme range BVR, sure.

Put AIM-9X on the same bi-plane and WVR it MIGHT be unbeatable!(Nothing can match the turn radius of a bi-plane! LOL!)

Horrido has pitched the idea a few times of an APG-71/AIM-54C armed B-1B bomber as a LR bomber interceptor should the Russians ever get frisky again.

LOL...3000 mile range, 10 hour loiter......very low RCS...good supersonic sprint performance...internal stores carraige of oh, 60 Phoenixes?

LOL, i like it.

Captain Drunk · 03-03-2006, 14:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jgetti

If Phoenix is as good as everyone says, we could put it on bi-planes and still be the world's top air-superiority fighter....

When talking of air-to-air combat supremacy, the buck stops with the F-14. The main reason - AIM 54 Phoenix. Without the Phoenix, an F-15 is fighting the well gunned F-14 with nothing but a kitchen knife.

jgetti · 03-03-2006, 14:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Drunk

When talking of air-to-air combat supremacy, the buck stops with the F-14. The main reason - AIM 54 Phoenix. Without the Phoenix, an F-15 is fighting the well gunned F-14 with nothing but a kitchen knife.

lol! I don't even know how to reply to a statement that dense.

View Poll Results: Which would win in a dogfight against the other F-14 or F-15?
USN F-14 Tomcat	27	35.53%
USAF F-15 Eagle	49	64.47%
Voters: 76. You may not vote on this poll

03-02-2006, 12:38 PM	#1 (permalink)
Captain Drunk Banished Join Date: 01-02-06 Location: Goa, India Posts: 825	FACE/OFF : “Topgun” USN F-14 vs. USAF F-15 Since the days of Korea and Vietnam, most air campaigns finally turned out to be an all-US Navy show with Corsair, Phantom and Tomcat missions being the order of the day even more than the regular USAF fighters. Map studies combined with knowledge of geopolitical restrictions further showed that carrier assets, primarily the F-14, were just about the U.S.'s best option. But the Navy’s supreme F-14s and USAF F-15s are in the same team. Now lets suppose they were fighting it off against each other in a highly competitive dogfight. Which one would win F-14 or F-15? Last edited by Captain Drunk : 03-02-2006 at 12:46 PM.

03-02-2006, 12:41 PM	#2 (permalink)
Captain Drunk Banished Join Date: 01-02-06 Location: Goa, India Posts: 825	I’d vote that F-14 wins the battle as : 1. Like the Flanker, an F-14’s pilot has his strategic WSO (Weapons System Officer). 2. Like Su-30 and Mig-29, F-14s have a powerful IRST for better enemy target detection upto 200 km away, something unavailable with the F-15. 3. Like the Flanker with the R-77RVV-AE-PD, it also has a deadly long-range missile - the AIM 54 Phoneix, again something an F-15 dosn't have. Last edited by Captain Drunk : 03-02-2006 at 12:44 PM.

03-02-2006, 18:43 PM	#4 (permalink)
leib10 HKHolic *Senior Contributor* Join Date: 02-17-05 Location: Lubbock, TX Posts: 3,256 Country:	I remember some time back the F-14 beat the F-15 49 out of 50 times- in the Air Force's own simulators. __________________ "The right man in the wrong place can make all the difference in the world. So wake up, Mr. Freeman. Wake up and smell the ashes." G-Man

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03-03-2006, 02:07 AM	#5 (permalink)
Captain Drunk Banished Join Date: 01-02-06 Location: Goa, India Posts: 825	I remember that too, another reason for Tomcat supremacy, while in January of 1979 an Iranian F-14 Phoenix is said to have hit a target drone at a range of 212 km during training.

03-03-2006, 10:26 AM	#9 (permalink)
leib10 HKHolic *Senior Contributor* Join Date: 02-17-05 Location: Lubbock, TX Posts: 3,256 Country:	No chance in hell an Eagle is going to win in BVR. Phoenix is a hard missile to beat, even by a fighter. I say it has a better chance up close, where it could use its greater available power and better maneuverability to its advantage.

03-03-2006, 12:24 PM	#10 (permalink)
hello Contributor Join Date: 05-31-05 Posts: 683	The F-14's Phoenix travels at Mach 5 while the F-15's AMRAAM at Mach 4 from half distance. However, the AMRAAM is more maneuverable than the Phoenix. If the F-15 can dodge the Phoenix and get in AMRAAM range, it gets the advantage. If the F-14 dodges the AMRAAM and gets WVR, the F-15 can win easily. However, now with Raptor vs Superbug, the equality the F14 and F-15 had is replaced with the clear superiority of the F-22.

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