Thread: FACE/OFF : “Topgun” USN F-14 vs. USAF F-15

Originally Posted by highsea

IIRC it's already done, it was just never implemented. But all the integration and testing was completed.

That is my understanding of the matter as well(at this point it's a small software update to get AMRAAM up and running, no one ever bothered cause the F14 was getting retired). The upgrade was performed on all D model Tomcats, both rebuilds and new builds.

Jimmy, the early production F-15Es and F-14D have very similar avionics. They are roughly comparable. The F14D has a superior radar though(the APG-71 has much higher power output and signal processing than either the APG-63(v)1/2 or the APG-70). The F-14D had superior avionics to an F-15C when it was introduced(no idea if the Cs have since been updated majorly- i assume the AESA ships have). The F-14D also has a superior DFCS/DEEC as opposed to the early Es and (as far as i know) all the -220 C models.

Newer build F-15Es and Ks do have signifcantly better avionics than an F-14D. Of course that is a straightforward problem with a straightforward fix, but that's water under the bridge now.

And i'm still not clear on how exactly the F-15 pilot is going to know when to execute his evasion manuever when you can't see the phoenix with the naked eye. It's hard to avoid something you can't see(i have heard about a gillion pilots say that it is critical to put eyes on an incoming AAM or SAM).
Remember, Phoenix is traveling a full 2 mach faster than a rifle bullet. The timing for the evasion would have to be executed with the utmost precision.
And it's not just a matter of evading the AIM-54, it's a matter of getting out of that huge proximity fragmentation sphere.

Again, i reckon in operational conditions an Eagle driver could avoid the vast majority of phoenixes(i'll give you as high as 80ish % even), but as i said, even a 10% PK would be disastrous in a 12 v 12 of F14Ds vs F15s, and a 15% PK would result in the theoretical complete destruction of the Eagle sqn.

And again, even if the Tom just drives the Eagles off at full burner forcing them to burn up all their fuel, it's almost as good as killing them.

Originally Posted by M21Sniper

That is my understanding of the matter as well(at this point it's a small software update to get AMRAAM up and running, no one ever bothered cause the F14 was getting retired). The upgrade was performed on all D model Tomcats, both rebuilds and new builds.

There's a big difference between getting it up and running and being able to take advantage of the missile's capabilities. The AMRAAM isnt just an upgrade to the Sparrow, its a COMPLETELY different system. They may have gotten through the testing phase, but I guarantee its not as simple as inserting a disk/plugging in and downloading a patch.

Jimmy, the early production F-15Es and F-14D have very similar avionics. They are roughly comparable. The F14D has a superior radar though(the APG-71 has much higher power output and signal processing than either the APG-63(v)1/2 or the APG-70). The F-14D had superior avionics to an F-15C when it was introduced(no idea if the Cs have since been updated majorly- i assume the AESA ships have). The F-14D also has a superior DFCS/DEEC as opposed to the early Es and (as far as i know) all the -220 C models.

Newer build F-15Es and Ks do have signifcantly better avionics than an F-14D. Of course that is a straightforward problem with a straightforward fix, but that's water under the bridge now.

Granted, the F-14D would've been upgraded by now if it hadnt been doomed. But as it stands, an F-15C has a much better software suite and avionics package (I only mentioned the F-15E because it carries a heavy load...I wasnt actually suggesting the E take on the F-14s). They undergo software updates routinely, but major upgrades are far more rare, and those are the big ones you hear about.

And i'm still not clear on how exactly the F-15 pilot is going to know when to execute his evasion manuever when you can't see the phoenix with the naked eye. It's hard to avoid something you can't see(i have heard about a gillion pilots say that it is critical to put eyes on an incoming AAM or SAM).
Remember, Phoenix is traveling a full 2 mach faster than a rifle bullet. The timing for the evasion would have to be executed with the utmost precision.
And it's not just a matter of evading the AIM-54, it's a matter of getting out of that huge proximity fragmentation sphere.

Again, I'm not sure if the evading the missile includes the kill radius. Remember, an F-15 can take a lot of damage too. It can lose a lot of lift-creating surface, an engine, a vertical stabilizer...this is a robust aircraft. He doesnt have to be completely outside the frag sphere to survive. As far as the evasion maneuver: there are a lot of ways to defeat a missile. You dont always have to wait until the last minute. I'm not going to give any specifics.

Again, i reckon in operational conditions an Eagle driver could avoid the vast majority of phoenixes(i'll give you as high as 80ish % even), but as i said, even a 10% PK would be disastrous in a 12 v 12 of F14Ds vs F15s, and a 15% PK would result in the theoretical complete destruction of the Eagle sqn.

And again, even if the Tom just drives the Eagles off at full burner forcing them to burn up all their fuel, it's almost as good as killing them.

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That's why I say the F-14s stand a damn fine chance at winning. At long range, they have an obvious advantage. But in ACT, there's a lot of factors to be considered. Chances are, the Navy has a radar timeline for AIM-54 employment...when is the best first-launch opportunity, etc. I have no idea what those numbers would be anyway, but I'd be surprised if the Toms would be firing from anywhere near their max range. They'd probably wait a while to give the missiles as much energy as possible at endgame...which brings them much closer to AMRAAM range. If the Eagles evade the majority of those -54s, the Toms are in range or damn close to it.

See, this isnt a strict numbers game. Tactics play a huge part. Sure, a Phoenix can kill a non-maneuvering target at 112 nm or whatever...but if that target had made a 5g turn just prior to the launch would the missile's cue have been accurate? Would it have even aimed in the right direction? Would maneuvers at other points of the intercept have made a difference?

The Phoenix does get command updates in flight so i would assume it is as capable of dealing with a changing aspect/bearing/rate as well as anything else with command updated inertial guidance. Keeping an incoming missile turning is always a good idea though.

No one is really even sure what the real range of the Phoenix is. I have seen as much as 130 nautical miles in closing engagements listed(obviously that would be against a big lumbering bear type target, if it is even accurate at all). For the sake of argument i've always just run with "100+ nm".

I agree with you that the Toms would want to close enough that they could get good shots with a high PK off, but it is also true in reverse. The F-15s likewise would want to close in to a closer range than the max engagement range of AMRAAM too.

At any rate i do not propose to know how this would all play out, i am only using my own intuition combined with open source data and a healthy dose of anecodtal 1st hand accounts of ACM in general.

PS: I am aware that there are several techniques to avoid a missile(as well as several techniques to notch a radar), but i believe that the most effective and most oft used is beaming, and if im not mistaken that requires eyes on the incoming missile. Yes? No?

At any rate, good debate guys. I did my best to do the Tomcat proud.

Eagle has already won. There are no F-14s to fly against

As for Phonnix vs AMRAAM

My money is on the Amraam. Unless you believe the Iranian claims. Which include shooting 3 planes down with one Phoenix on one occasion and 4 with one on another.

The verifiable number of AIM-54 kills is 0.

Thanx for repeating yourself.

To think we've spent all this time in minute technical discussion just to have you settle the argument by repeating yourself with one paragraph and zero in the way of useful facts.

Thanx so much.

Originally Posted by Jimmy

See, this isnt a strict numbers game. Tactics play a huge part. Sure, a Phoenix can kill a non-maneuvering target at 112 nm or whatever...but if that target had made a 5g turn just prior to the launch would the missile's cue have been accurate? Would it have even aimed in the right direction? Would maneuvers at other points of the intercept have made a difference?

Tactics won’t work with the Phoenix. You could try with a trisonic SAM missile like SA-2 in which case even then, turning and whirling away from it won’t avoid getting hit as the missile’s guidance alters with the target’s bearing. The only way to avoid an incoming SAM is to face it - turn the aircraft head-on into the missile’s path and release chaff from behind completing confusing its control centre. But that won’t work at Mach 5, since slowing down to take a wider turn means, that Phoenix hits and streaking away at max. speed means less wider angles - you’re moving much like a slower missile, that Phoenix hits dead centre. Either way you’re dead.

The AIM-54C (sealed) has all improved electronic counter-countermeasure capabilities to do away with all electronic jamming, F-14s can launch all 6 simultaneously while tracking 24 targets all at once. F-14s being a mini-AWACS system, wouldn’t even need to use their AIM-54s if, they just keep the F-15s within coverage range of their Phoenixes. In this case either the Eagles will decide to disengage and make a run for it, or counter but the F-14s will always fire first from 140 km and its game over

Originally Posted by M21Sniper

The Phoenix does get command updates in flight so i would assume it is as capable of dealing with a changing aspect/bearing/rate as well as anything else with command updated inertial guidance. Keeping an incoming missile turning is always a good idea though.

A miscue at launch can have an impact on a missile's trajectory, which could have an effect on pk at endgame, depending on about 8 million factors.

No one is really even sure what the real range of the Phoenix is. I have seen as much as 130 nautical miles in closing engagements listed(obviously that would be against a big lumbering bear type target, if it is even accurate at all). For the sake of argument i've always just run with "100+ nm".

That's pretty much my take on it as well. I'm far more familiar with the AIM-120 than the -54.

I agree with you that the Toms would want to close enough that they could get good shots with a high PK off, but it is also true in reverse. The F-15s likewise would want to close in to a closer range than the max engagement range of AMRAAM too.

Yeah, probably, but its not as critical. Anyway, the F-15 carries a lot of missiles. So they could even pop off a couple early, just to F up the Toms' intercept. If the F-14 maneuvers, the Phoenix loses those updates and is completely blind unless its active radar is up...that radar is probably battery powered, so it has a finite lifespan, which is unlikely to last until endgame. Tactics

At any rate i do not propose to know how this would all play out, i am only using my own intuition combined with open source data and a healthy dose of anecodtal 1st hand accounts of ACM in general.

I'm also curious to see how it would play out...these are two of my favorite aircraft. The F-15 is a superior jet (in many ways because the Tom was neglected for the past decade), but the F-14 gets a big boost from that massive Phoenix.

PS: I am aware that there are several techniques to avoid a missile(as well as several techniques to notch a radar), but i believe that the most effective and most oft used is beaming, and if im not mistaken that requires eyes on the incoming missile. Yes? No?

Sort of. It doesnt necessarily require eyes-on, but you need to know where it is. If you know that the missile is semi-active (or at least not active at the moment) then you know exactly where its getting its information: the plane that is currently throwing trons down your throat. The earlier you can defeat a missile, the better.

At any rate, good debate guys. I did my best to do the Tomcat proud.

You raise very good points. I'm not trying to argue with you really, I'm really just trying to make sure nobody thinks its a slam dunk.

You know, I just realized that this thread has just proven something I said in the "most important part of a plane" thread: Weapons!

Originally Posted by Gun Grape

Eagle has already won. There are no F-14s to fly against

IRAN AirCraft (IACI) does a mighty good job of upgrading their Tomcats. Iran's domestic production of home grown versions of the sidewinder, claim to be superior to the West ? Who knows how far thats true, but their gonna be here until 2015, thats about the time the USAF F-15 is phased out.

Also I heard F-14 is being tested by NASA as a potential first stage for a launch system for small satellites? F-14 now becomes a STAR WARS asset, while F-15s still fight conventional wars. Tomcat wins again

Originally Posted by Jimmy

Anyway, the F-15 carries a lot of missiles. So they could even pop off a couple early, just to F up the Toms' intercept....Tactics

What a neat hypothetical assumption, considering an F-15 pilot’s gonna exhaust all his missiles then bet his life on a multi-shot AIM-54C. Imagine a three-ship formation of F-14s firing 2 Phoenixes simultaneously on alternate F-15s in another three-ship formation. Two Phoenixes selectively acquire an F-15 each. Is any F-15 gonna last trying to evade 2 Phoenixes fired from separate F-14s? I think not