FACE/OFF : “Topgun” USN F-14 vs. USAF F-15

**jgetti** · 06 Mar 06,, 17:20

Originally Posted by M21Sniper

In a 150 mile head on closing fight, he's right.

It would suck to get drubbed by all those Phoenixes before you could even shoot back, even for the mighty Eagle.

In the classical WWIII Blue water BVR naval engagement forseen by the USN, F-14s would utterly own F-15s, even if the Phoenixes could manage only a 15-20% hit rate.

This is no knock against the Eagle bro, the F-14/Phoenix were designed to DOMINATE that fight.

Put them over the central front of Europe on opposing sides, and the Eagles would do MUCH, MUCH better, and IMO, would hold a significant edge vs the F-14s because it would very hard to utilize the full range of the Phoenix/APG-71 weapons system. From about 40 miles in there is no doubt that the AMRAAM/Eagle is a tremendously lethal combonation.

I may be a fool, but I remain sceptical of the effectiveness of the Phoenix missile system. I'm not saying that it didn't work, and work well, but there just isn't enough data to confirm its overwhelming dominance. I hope no-one takes that as a personal bias to F-15, because that's not my intent. Seeing is believing I guess, and I have a hard time believing the F-14/Phoenix weapons system is so completely dominant over any other aircraft weapons system when the numbers just aren't there to back it up. There are several other aircraft/weapons system combinations that have proven themselves time and time again,, F-15 included. The F-14/Phoenix weapons system may very well be as good as has been stated, but the active combat proof just isn't there.

**Bill** · 06 Mar 06,, 17:25

In a 12 v 12 merging fight from LR BVR if the F-14/Phoneixes scored just a 16.7% hit rate not a single Eagle would even be left alive to shoot back by the time the fight closed to AMRAAM range.

Even if outnumbered 2:1 the Toms would still only need to score a 33% hit rate to 'win' the fight 12-0.

While i tend to agree that the Phoenix would not have a "dominant" hit %, i am quite confident it could easily achieve a 16.7% hit rate.

You have to factor in the huge warhead. A Phoenix has a hell of a lot more room for error than an AMRAAM(Phoenix has nearly triple the lethal radius of AMRAAM).

**Blademaster** · 07 Mar 06,, 00:31

Originally Posted by M21Sniper

In a 12 v 12 merging fight from LR BVR if the F-14/Phoneixes scored just a 16.7% hit rate not a single Eagle would even be left alive to shoot back by the time the fight closed to AMRAAM range.

Even if outnumbered 2:1 the Toms would still only need to score a 33% hit rate to 'win' the fight 12-0.

While i tend to agree that the Phoenix would not have a "dominant" hit %, i am quite confident it could easily achieve a 16.7% hit rate.

You have to factor in the huge warhead. A Phoenix has a hell of a lot more room for error than an AMRAAM(Phoenix has nearly triple the lethal radius of AMRAAM).

That is, assuming, if you are going in a straight line and not in a zig zag or horizontal spiral motion and there was no AWAC cover. With those two factors thrown into the equation, your optimistic figures of Phoenix's performance will rapidly close down to zero.

**~~Captain Drunk~~** · 07 Mar 06,, 02:56

The F-15 sparrow's 17% hit rate or its sidewinders wouldnt be able to match the Phoenix. It would have to come upclose near the F-14, which would easily target the F-15 from 140 km atleast accurately. Also as regards pilot training, I'm sure 'Topgun' trained F-14 pilots score higher than F-15 pilots

**Bill** · 07 Mar 06,, 13:15

"That is, assuming, if you are going in a straight line and not in a zig zag or horizontal spiral motion and there was no AWAC cover. With those two factors thrown into the equation, your optimistic figures of Phoenix's performance will rapidly close down to zero."

Ummmm, no.

Or do you expect the AMRAAMs hit numbers to also fall to zero if the F-14Ds swerve and jink?

What good is AWACS cover going to do when your enemy opens fire on your butt at 100 nautical miles and you can't shoot back until you close to within 40nm(at best)?

I mean seriously dude.......WTF?

**Jimmy** · 07 Mar 06,, 17:47

Originally Posted by M21Sniper

"That is, assuming, if you are going in a straight line and not in a zig zag or horizontal spiral motion and there was no AWAC cover. With those two factors thrown into the equation, your optimistic figures of Phoenix's performance will rapidly close down to zero."

Ummmm, no.

Or do you expect the AMRAAMs hit numbers to also fall to zero if the F-14Ds swerve and jink?

What good is AWACS cover going to do when your enemy opens fire on your butt at 100 nautical miles and you can't shoot back until you close to within 40nm(at best)?

I mean seriously dude.......WTF?

The AMRAAM is more maneuverable. The F-14 is unlikely to evade if the F-15 pilot knows what he's doing.

Granted, the F-15 stands a pretty good chance of getting hit by the Phoenix, but he's got a better chance of defeating the missile than the F-14.

**Bill** · 07 Mar 06,, 17:51

I agree that an AMRAAM is probably harder to evade than a Phoenix, but i would be STUNNED if a Phoenix could not manage a real world 15% PK rate against an AAM combat loaded F-15(assuming pilots of equal skill).

**~~Captain Drunk~~** · 08 Mar 06,, 12:49

You all are just underestimating the AIM-54 to make the F-14 look inferior to the F-15

Truth is as history showed even 3rd gen. Iraqi Mirage F-1s were shooting down allied jets in Desert Storm with their long range Matras. The F-14s fought with almost no losses in ODS while F-18s, F-16s, F-4s and even F-15s have all gone down in different Air-war theatres world wide against enemy Migs / Mirages while the sole Iranian Tomcat that was hit by an Iraqi Mig-21 probably had the same old sidewinders / sparrows the other fighters had and not the Phoenix at the time.

In other words, only the F-14 pilot with the Phoenix would have Snipers tagline "One Shot One Kill"

**jgetti** · 08 Mar 06,, 15:02

Originally Posted by Captain Drunk

You all are just underestimating the AIM-54 to make the F-14 look inferior to the F-15

Truth is as history showed even 3rd gen. Iraqi Mirage F-1s were shooting down allied jets in Desert Storm with their long range Matras. The F-14s fought with almost no losses in ODS while F-18s, F-16s, F-4s and even F-15s have all gone down in different Air-war theatres world wide against enemy Migs / Mirages while the sole Iranian Tomcat that was hit by an Iraqi Mig-21 probably had the same old sidewinders / sparrows the other fighters had and not the Phoenix at the time.

In other words, only the F-14 pilot with the Phoenix would have Snipers tagline "One Shot One Kill"

You've really got to lay off the crack........

**HistoricalDavid** · 08 Mar 06,, 15:04

Originally Posted by jgetti

You've really got to lay off the crack........

You ain't seen nothin' yet, look at the 'Stealth/Counter-Stealth' thread.

**Jimmy** · 08 Mar 06,, 18:24

Originally Posted by M21Sniper

I agree that an AMRAAM is probably harder to evade than a Phoenix, but i would be STUNNED if a Phoenix could not manage a real world 15% PK rate against an AAM combat loaded F-15(assuming pilots of equal skill).

Agreed 100%.

**Jimmy** · 08 Mar 06,, 18:26

Originally Posted by Jimmy

Agreed 100%.

Originally Posted by Captain Drunk

You all are just underestimating the AIM-54 to make the F-14 look inferior to the F-15

Truth is as history showed even 3rd gen. Iraqi Mirage F-1s were shooting down allied jets in Desert Storm with their long range Matras. The F-14s fought with almost no losses in ODS while F-18s, F-16s, F-4s and even F-15s have all gone down in different Air-war theatres world wide against enemy Migs / Mirages while the sole Iranian Tomcat that was hit by an Iraqi Mig-21 probably had the same old sidewinders / sparrows the other fighters had and not the Phoenix at the time.

In other words, only the F-14 pilot with the Phoenix would have Snipers tagline "One Shot One Kill"

Jeez, man...where do you get your info? There is so much wrong here that its not even worth refuting, except one thing I like to mention:

The only aircraft that has EVER shot down an F-15 is another F-15.

**Bill** · 08 Mar 06,, 19:34

Captain Drunk is a weee bit enthusiastic about systems he likes, but he has progressed from full on troll to overly optomistic enthusiast.(pretty quickly too)

Give it time boys, we'll reach him.

**highsea** · 08 Mar 06,, 20:46

Originally Posted by M21Sniper

...Give it time boys, we'll reach him.

Lol. I guess if I was a kid growing up in India, those MiGs would seem pretty exotic to me too.

**Blademaster** · 08 Mar 06,, 20:58

Originally Posted by M21Sniper

"That is, assuming, if you are going in a straight line and not in a zig zag or horizontal spiral motion and there was no AWAC cover. With those two factors thrown into the equation, your optimistic figures of Phoenix's performance will rapidly close down to zero."

Ummmm, no.

Or do you expect the AMRAAMs hit numbers to also fall to zero if the F-14Ds swerve and jink?

What good is AWACS cover going to do when your enemy opens fire on your butt at 100 nautical miles and you can't shoot back until you close to within 40nm(at best)?

I mean seriously dude.......WTF?

For one thing, they can evade the missiles and know there are F-14Ds out there and it means that F-14D will have less missiles while the F-15s are coming rapidly close to engage the F-14s.

There is nothing worse than being in a firefight with a gun and no bullets. I mean seriously dude..... WTF?