USN F-14 Tomcat
USAF F-15 Eagle
You should know that those target drones were pretty easy to hit. No cover jamming or any ECM equipment and it was pretty much screaming "hit-me". Grumman even acknowledged that it wasn't that great of a test. Do some reading before you flap your mouth...
As said, hitting a "Target drone" is a hell of a lot different from hitting an ECM using, mobile aircraft with a pilot betting his life on his actions...
My bet is, in a real life scenario, the F15 with AMRAAMs would be more useful against fighters from a longer range than the F14 with it's AIM54 / AIM7 radar guided combo...
Against non-manouvering drones or strike aircraft (such as the AIM54 was designed for) - different story.
In a dogfight the best thing is F-15 can do is to keep the speed up. The Navy planes (Hornet and Tomcat) are much better suited to low speed furballs. The F-15 can pull more g's than the Tomcat in most situations.
If both airframes had been developed on, F-15XX vs ASF-14F would've been a different story...
If you put the newest F-15K/SG against an F-14D, I'd say they could beat it. First, they'll detect it before getting detected, with AESA and a lower RCS(4 to ~6/7, depending on VG wing sweep), and cut down on the Phoenix's range advantage. Once the F-14 does detect them and launches Phoenixs, if the F-15s dodge it, which the much lighter, more powerful K/SG variants can do better than the C, they'll come within AMRAAM D range, which can outperform the Sparrow in all dimensions. If they come WVR, of course, the F-15 has it's maneuverability edge and more Sidewinder shots. This is considering the F-14D has a load of 4 AIM-54Cs, 2 AIM-7Ms and 2 AIM-9Ms and the F-15K/SG has a load of 3 600 gallon drop tanks, 4 AIM-120Ds and 4 AIM-9Xs.
However, on a non-AESA, normal F-15C with AIM-9Ms and AIM-120Cs, the fight is more equal. The more weight, less power, shorter ranged, less accurate weapons and higher RCS of the C(in comparison to K/SG) gives the Tomcat a better chance to shoot down the C in a BVR environment in Phoenix/Sparrow range.
Last edited by hello; 15 Jun 06, at 07:38.
We’re not talking about how easy it is to hit a target drone, we’re talking about the mere fact that an F-14 hit it’s target 212 km away - a feat that neither the F-22 or any other fighter can do to date and probably never will.Originally Posted by nutter
As regards the AMRAAM, any missile at length can be dodged / evaded from long range, but the slower the missile the more tendency it has to whirl off than stay on course like an AIM-54A/C can and has consistently flown past Mach 5.
But the F-15 cannot dodge an AIM-54 more easily than an F-14 could spin and send the Eagle’s sidewinders whirling off using ECM and chaff. Whats more, forget F-15 dodging the Phoenix, at Mach 5+ I doubt F-15’s radar would even detect it in the first place.
Strap an AIM-9X on a P-38 Lightning and call it a better dogfighter for all I care. I’m not debating which is a better dogfighter, for Pete's sake I’m debating who could kill whom first and in that sense, Tomcat is the fastest gun in the Wild Wild West! If Sidewinders were better wouldn’t the Navy opt for more of them being fitted on F-14s than Raytheon’s million dollar missile? Top priority interceptions always have the AIM-54. From the evidence below its clear Tomcat with the Phoenix is indeed the fastest gun.....
Last edited by Captain Drunk; 15 Jun 06, at 05:22.
My conclusion is this:
You're either a troll, or seriously deluded
edit:
No way in hell is an aim54 going to turn with an F15. it will do it's mach5 straight past (however, at 200km range, my bet is it's going to be sub-sonic :D)
It may get first shot, but it's certainly not going to get first kill on anything more than either a dumb target drone or an un-manouverable strike aircraft.
How many fighter-class kills does the aim54 have again?
Last edited by nutter; 15 Jun 06, at 07:16.
"As regards the AMRAAM, any missile at length can be dodged / evaded from long range, but the slower the missile the more tendency it has to whirl off than stay on course like an AIM-54A/C can and has consistently flown past Mach 5. "As regards the AMRAAM, any missile at length can be dodged / evaded from long range, but the slower the missile the more tendency it has to whirl off than stay on course like an AIM-54A/C can and has consistently flown past Mach 5.
But the F-15 cannot dodge an AIM-54 more easily than an F-14 could spin and send the Eagle’s sidewinders whirling off using ECM and chaff. Whats more, forget F-15 dodging the Phoenix, at Mach 5+ I doubt F-15’s radar would even detect it in the first place.
Strap an AIM-9X on a P-38 Lightning and call it a better dogfighter for all I care. I’m not debating which is a better dogfighter, for Pete's sake I’m debating who could kill whom first and in that sense, Tomcat is the fastest gun in the Wild Wild West! If Sidewinders were better wouldn’t the Navy opt for more of them being fitted on F-14s than Raytheon’s million dollar missile? Top priority interceptions always have the AIM-54. From the evidence below its clear Tomcat with the Phoenix is indeed the fastest gun.....
I was talking about an F-15K/SG against an F-14D, both of which are the newest existing versions of the F-14 and F-15, AFAIK. With AESA, the SG can probably use their RWR-stealth tactic, so the F-14 won't know an AMRAAM is on the way until it turns its own radar on, but by then it's in the NEZ. It won't know it's under fire until the missile is less than 5 seconds away.
"But the F-15 cannot dodge an AIM-54 more easily than an F-14 could spin and send the Eagle’s sidewinders whirling off using ECM and chaff. Whats more, forget F-15 dodging the Phoenix, at Mach 5+ I doubt F-15’s radar would even detect it in the first place.
Chaff and ECM on a Sidewinder? It's a WVR IR missile! I think you're confusing it for the AMRAAM because of a spelling mistake(WVR was written BVR). Anyway, chaff and flare is pretty much useless against most modern AAMs, including the Phoenix's Sealed/ECCM version.
The F-15 doesn't have to detect the Phoenix on radar. It only has to know it's coming on it's RWR, and speed doesn't matter to that. From long range, if the Phoenix is fired from an F-14D, the F-15 pilot will here the loud RWR beep tone change and then he can react to dodge it while te missile is a long way off. With the AESA F-15s, the RWR of the F-14 won't pick up the missile launch until it's in the NEZ of the AMRAAM, so the speed of the Phoenix reducing reaction time is made useless, as the F-14 will have even less reaction time. Also, speed doesn't mean accuracy or maneuverability. Infact, the more speed, the longer turn radius and less maneuverability.
"Strap an AIM-9X on a P-38 Lightning and call it a better dogfighter for all I care. I’m not debating which is a better dogfighter, for Pete's sake I’m debating who could kill whom first and in that sense, Tomcat is the fastest gun in the Wild Wild West! If Sidewinders were better wouldn’t the Navy opt for more of them being fitted on F-14s than Raytheon’s million dollar missile? Top priority interceptions always have the AIM-54. From the evidence below its clear Tomcat with the Phoenix is indeed the fastest gun....."
You really are a retard, you know that?We’re not talking about how easy it is to hit a target drone, we’re talking about the mere fact that an F-14 hit it’s target 212 km away - a feat that neither the F-22 or any other fighter can do to date and probably never will.
As regards the AMRAAM, any missile at length can be dodged / evaded from long range, but the slower the missile the more tendency it has to whirl off than stay on course like an AIM-54A/C can and has consistently flown past Mach 5.
But the F-15 cannot dodge an AIM-54 more easily than an F-14 could spin and send the Eagle’s sidewinders whirling off using ECM and chaff. Whats more, forget F-15 dodging the Phoenix, at Mach 5+ I doubt F-15’s radar would even detect it in the first place.
Strap an AIM-9X on a P-38 Lightning and call it a better dogfighter for all I care. I’m not debating which is a better dogfighter, for Pete's sake I’m debating who could kill whom first and in that sense, Tomcat is the fastest gun in the Wild Wild West! If Sidewinders were better wouldn’t the Navy opt for more of them being fitted on F-14s than Raytheon’s million dollar missile? Top priority interceptions always have the AIM-54. From the evidence below its clear Tomcat with the Phoenix is indeed the fastest gun.....
If AIM-54s were so awesome, why arent they still in service? Why were they replaced by the AIM-120? Maybe there are more important things than outright range...like maneuverability, target tracking, etc.
I think one of the reasons for the retirement of the Pheonix was that it cost $1 million a peice... in the 1980s.
Most engagements happen within a 100 km radius so a slower, fuel exhausted AIM-54C even at 160 km would still be a lot faster than an F-15 - its 4 cruciform fins providing all the maneuverability to turn with the Eagle and hit home dead centre. Eagles dead.
IRIAF F-14s scored 60-70 AIM-54 kills against even small agile fighters like Iraqi Mig-21s. Supporters of these claims point to the fact that, in the 1991 Gulf War, Iraqi fighter pilots consistently turned and fled as soon as American F-14 pilots turned on their fighters' very distinctive AN/AWG-9 radars, which suggests that Iraqi pilots had learned to avoid the F-14. During the Iran-Iraq war, the IRIAF utilised their Phoenixes indifferently as the USN had planned to use them and achieved great success even against small, agile and low flying fighters.
Last edited by Captain Drunk; 18 Jun 06, at 09:30.
Nay, methinks the biggest retard is he that thinkests fellows at Raytheon doth builded a million dollar missile for nothing.
(i) They aren’t in service because Cold War I is over.
(ii) They were replaced by the AIM-120 because other USAF fighters and F-18s could not be adapted with them.
(iii) Best maneuverability, target tracking for missiles without range mean nothing. Phoenix’s active seeker illuminating the target without help from F-14’s radar is the best guidance system and as for maneuverability, it’s a winged missile with 4 cuniform fins unlike anything a sidewinder has.
So what? The Sidewinder has TVC.
Speed, as I said before, does not help the missiles maneuverability, and actually worsens it, although it reduces reaction time. However, this advantage is removed by the newer AESA variants of the APG-63 with LPI, and the F-14 will not know if an AMRAAM has been launched at it until it's in the NEZ of the missile. An F-15 will know that the Phoenix is being fired at it from the point where it's launched, and can react and dodge it well before the Phoenix has a chance. I can't help you if Iraqi MiG-21s' radars and RWRs weren't capable enough.
Also, the F-15 can use the Phoenix's speed against it, by flying right at it until it's around 30 miles away, followed by maneuvering hard at 6-9Gs and forcing the Phoenix to decelerate from Mach 5 to subsonic in 5 seconds, prevent the lock from breaking, and not being confused by a shower of chaff in order to hit. If it does one of those wrong, or one of those even slightly incorrect, the F-15 can just pull up on full burn and force the now out of fuel, very slow moving Phoenix to go hurtling straight down. Once that's done, it's within AMRAAM D range, and now it's the F-14s turn to dodge the slower, more maneuverabvle AMRAAM, which it won't know is coming until it's too late, because of the AESA Eagles LPI "stealth tactic". If the F-14 does manage to dodge it, the fight comes WVR, and the F-15 gets the upperhand again, with AIM-9X, JHMCS, and more maneuverability. So the Tomcat's hopes hang on the Phoenix for survival against the modern F-15s, and if that fails, the F-15 takes control.
If the Tomcat/s shoot multiple Phoenix's at each Eagle, they can just climb like wild until the Phoenix comes close enough, and then use the speed and altitude they've built up, along with the Phoenix's speed, and countermeasures to pull off multiple dodges and defend from the Phoenixs. Sure, the F-14 can do the same, but they don't get the kind of reaction time as the Eagles, and have a more maneuverable, harder to trick missile after them. This assesment is if it's F-15K/SG/Cs w. AESA APG-63(v)1 or (v)2s against F-14A/Ds with APG-71s or AWG-9s, both the F-14s and F-15s have AWACS support, and the F-15s are carrying 4 AMRAAM Ds, 4 Sidewinder Xs and 3 600 gallon drop tanks, while the F-14s are carrying 4 Phoenix Cs, 2 Sparrow Ms, and 2 Sidewinder Ms.
That sounds more like a cartoon film
Why do you always use WVR in F-14 vs. F-15 engagements? All the F-14 has to do is track the F-15, not the AMRAAM - because its not getting within a the range of a medium range missile in the first place, Tomcat isn't going to play WVR, like a Mig-31 with long ranged AA-9s, its going to end game at BVR. The F-14 is going to track and shoot the F-15, before getting in the NEZ of the missile and in WVR, if reaction time is anything - with a Mach 5+ AIM-54 less than 100 km away, an F-15 pilot has just one minute or so to react.
Last edited by Captain Drunk; 18 Jun 06, at 13:14.
I would think the F-14s will capitalise on the launch and leave capability of their phoenix at BVR? ie Chainsaw.
even if the F-15s were to dodge the slightly less maneuverable Phoenixs, they wont get a return shot of their AMRAAMs which are being launched at the edge of their WEZs.
Don't be so busy scoffing at others and think in depth!The results show the F-14 was designed for lower altitude work while the F-15 was designed as a "top cover" aircraft.
Go back and look at most of the test that the F-14A/Phoenix Missile undertook during testing and evaluating. The Phoenix missile was fired from lower altitudes up at Backfire type bomber targets at higher altitudes. Look at the Iranian F-14's and their kills of Tu-22M Blinders. The F-14's were at a lower altitude than the targets.
The F-14 and MiG.-31 share the aerial combat aspects of standing off at a distance, using their powerful radars plus long range missiles to kill their distant targets.
There is a reason most countries who are purchasing new interceptor/fighters are selecting the Su-27/family of aircraft and only PLAAF has purchased MiG.-31's.
The Viet Nam War showed that interceptors can be drawn into dogfights and must be able to maneuever to defend themselves. Something the Sukhois can do far better than the MiG.-31.
The MiG.-31 was designed as an interceptor, have you heard of it being used as an escort, NO. It is not a role it was designed for, why because its dogfighting abilities is nothing to write home about, reguardless of any technology it might possess. The Su-27/family of aircraft the F-14 and, F-15 can perform both roles.
That is great during a first attack but as subsequent attacks takes place the problem of aerial combat that has not been solved -IFF becomes a real issue. Until the IFF problem can be solved, modern aircraft must, be able to fight the WVR combat effectively. Obtaining a visual ID can be complicated by clouds and fog.
There is more than one reason the Navy retired the Tomcat, reliability is just one, the performance edge over the competition is the other.
CONGRADULATIONS, someone who can do two things at once.... like sit down and 'think!' I wish there were others here, that could do that!!
In the real world it doesn't turn out that way. Number one, the comparisons made by the USAF & congress that the F-15 has lower wing loading than the F-14 did not calculate the lift of the body effect between the two engines! Good PR but not accurate.
As for the transonic turn rates.... the corner velocity for;
The F-14 is Mach 1.2 at 20,000 feet.
The F-15 is Mach 0.9 to Mach 1.1 at 30,000 feet.
Since when is there an apreciable advantage in the AN/APG-70 versus the AN/APG-71?
Check the kill statistics for the Iran Iraq war, you will see that the F-14's killed;
13 __ MiG-25's, 30 __ MiG-23's, 22 __ MiG-21's, 35 __ Mirage F.1's, 2 __ Anti-Ship Missiles.
Look at the way the F-14 and F-15 were used in PGW#1. The F-14 would escort A-6's and A-7's on bombing raids then withdraw from the combat area. The F-15 would go in with the Wild Weasels, remain over the enemy airspace as wave after wave of attackers would come and go. If any interceptors would rise and challenge the airspace, the F-15's would stay and fight. In that envirement, visual ID is mandatory. A BVR shot against a target that did not respond with the proper IFF could be a damaged friendly, not a bad guy. Then finally the F-15 would leave with the last of the Wild Weasels and jammers after spending hours in the aerial arena.
The F-14 spent very little time as a fighter escort, the bulk of its time was spent protecting the fleet.
Adrian
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