Endangered

Momentum is building within the Air Force to sell the service's prized F-22A Raptor -- which is loaded with super-secret systems -- to trusted U.S. allies, with Japan viewed as the most likely buyer, service and industry officials tell Inside the Air Force... Read full article

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Tronic

kool, i hope Pakistan's one of them... still haven't got over the F-16's lol, gettin the F22 will give em a heart attack... lol. but sad... it says "trusted" allies....

BenRoethig

That pretty much means Japan and Oz if they want them. I think a reduced stealth international Raptor also has more than a chance of serving with some USAF units due to costs. Now, can I get one with a tail hook? I don't like the idea of bombers protecting our carriers.

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dave angel

without the 'stealthy' bit the F-22 is just an expensive EF Typhoon. the UK won't be interested unless its the full works, we've been bitten over the technology transfer issues on the JSF and without some serious guarentees won't be buying our high-performance aircraft from the US again.

Australia may not be so interested either because of a simple matter of geography. Australia has a vast, unimaginably large area over which it may have to defend its airspace and very few aircraft with which to do it - any aircraft operating in defence of Austraila will need external tanks and A2A refueling because of those vast distances, making the original 'stealthyness' an irrelevence and therefore not worth paying for.

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BenRoethig

You guys want full codes and IP rights which could be transferred to the EU and european industry. We didn't spend billions developing all aspect stealth technoloy just so we could have a bargaining chip to sell the UK 150 fighters. You don't get 100% benefits when you pay 1% of the bill. If we proposed the same deal, London would laugh in our face and you know it.

dave angel

equally you can't sell something that only does half of what it says on the tin and expect to get full whack for it.

without the stealth and the electronic systems the F-22 is just another fast, very manouverable fighter - albeit one with limited strike capability - and we already have one of them - but ours has much greater strike capability. unless the US is looking to sell a 'cheap' version for $50m or so then the F-22 export version has too many competitors.

the deal is that it is the US who needs to drum up orders for the F-22, everyone else has designed their AF's on the understanding that the F-22 wouldn't be available for export or would be far too expensive and so has spent their dollars elsewhere, so if the US wishes to re-coup some of the cash its put into the F-22 then its going to have to sell them on relatively favourable terms.

would various government, including mine, be interested in buying a full spec F-22 fleet? yes, we would. but not at $130m a pop - its just too expensive after we've sunk our resourses into the EF Typhoon fleet. if the F-22 were available to us at US standards for a bit less than that we could seriously think about having a serious upgrade and have an AF whose fast jet fleet was comprised only of F-22's and EF Typhoons and the JSF, instead of the collection of Typhoons, Tornado's, Jaguars and Harriers we currently have and will continue to have until the last three start falling out of the sky.

any cash you get into the F-22 program above the cost of rhe raw materials and labour is going to be better that what you have at the moment, but that is your choice.

The_Burning_Kid

No, the point is that the US shouldn't have to give Britian and them all that technology for free basically. We pumped in tons and tons of dollars into developing stealth and those electronics. Yeah, were going to give all that for 1% of the cost. Does that make sense? No.

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dave angel

you do know that the definition of 'free' doesn't include $100m apeice don't you?

if we bought F-22's we would probably pay that kind of figure, now in none of the schools i went to would $100m be decribed as 'free'.

if you pay money for something, you get that something.

tphuang

i wonder when did F-22 become 130 million. That's the fly away cost. They will sell it a how lot more expensive than that, because of how much money they put into the development. 400 million sounds quite reasonable for a plane of F-22's capability. 200 million for a reduced version. Even without the maximum amount of stealth features applied to it, a reduced version will still be more stealthy and manuverable than anything else in the market. Most likely, Japan will be the only country that can afford it. UK won't be able to after purchasing 150 JSF and all those typhoons. Btw, the latest pricetag for JSF has been mentionned at 120 million+ too.

The_Burning_Kid

Sure that's not free but what about all the development money we put in? We poured in millions (probably billions) into researching those electronics, stealth, and that stuff. A $100 million is nothing next to the development costs of the F-22 Raptor.

dave angel

50 aircraft at $100m apiece - it will probably have to be less than that - say $85m, with training in the US thrown in and some refurbishment and engines as well, but the US will be doing that anyway so its not really going to cost much extra.

50 airframes at $85m a piece is still a lot of cash - $4billion or so. not to be sneezed at.

The_Burning_Kid

$8 billion compared to how much money we put into the development of all the technology? Doubt it will be more than 10% of the overall money we've spent researching stealth, the avionics, and other stuff.

HistoricalDavid

Er, unless they hone their production techniques to impossibly efficient levels, it's never going to be less than a $120 million a piece. Regardless, America didn't develop the fighter for export, it developed it to give herself ownership of the skies. Any sales which recoup the production cost are an immediate bonus for the United States, but as even at that price level you've just shut out all of the market except Japan and, if they didn't already develop and buy the Eurofighter, the UK, and if you go anywhere near the level needed to recoup your developmental costs, you'll lose them too.

Frankly I'll be surprised if even Japan buys some.

tphuang

i don't understand how some people on this forum is even suggesting 80 million for a F-22. Even a block 60 F-16 costs 80 million each. A fully equipped rafale costs 145 million. Getting a fully equipped F-22 for 250 million each should be considered cheap. Think about it, the fighter that was developed for mass production (F-35) is now going to cost 120 million each.

The_Burning_Kid

And how do you come to that figure? I highly doubt a F-35 will cost $120 million. At the most it will cost around $55 million for the F-35C. A Raptor costs around $120 million, I'm pretty sure.