F-22, stuff you should know - Page 5

Rusky · 01-19-2006, 20:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Burning_Kid

First off, like I said, the F-18's radar is similar in performance to the AN/APG-77 so that does work. First off, the ranges are quite different and LPI mean Low Probability of Intercept, meaning that it is extremely hard to intercept its radar and know its tracking you.

As i said i get that, but the thing is the radar of a Mig or whatever will be able to detect the F-18, it doesn't need to know that F-18 is engaging it to do that.

Quote:

As for computer data, sure:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...027-afpn01.htm

Although it doesn't give the name or the capability, but we can assume it is far better considering that it is being designed for service in Sept 30 2006.

Thanks.

Quote:

I would like to know how do you know that this actually works? Is there any flight data on it? Any actual sources that are respectible. Doubt so. Its interesting, you somehow think to know that the US doesn't already know about these radars and yet is designing them. Do you work for the USAF's top-secret programs that you know that they dont' have it? Doubt so.

It is designing them? Where did it say it is designing them? Russia is designing them. A radr of this type detected the F-117 flying over Yugoslavia, you know the one that was shot down. Also a radar does need to be in the air to have its capabilities tested. I am going to try to find you another source.

Rusky · 01-19-2006, 20:13 PM

http://www.milparade.com/catalog/part4/radars.shtml

here is one link thats for 55ZH6-1 NEBO mobile metric-wave 3-D radar. The metric wave allows it to detect stealth aircraft look for an explanation in my original post. This is a truck radar, but the thing is, if F-22 is detected by this thing that info can be easily transfered to the pilot in the jet fighter.

and here is a good one on

http://warfare.ru/?linkid=2194&catid=251

NEBO-SV (1L13-3) Mobile 2-D VHF Band Radar System

quote from the link:

Superior Detection Performance
Superior long-range detection of any air targets including those manufactured according to STEALTH technology is achieved due to clever integration of advanced factors, such as operation in metric wave band of radiated frequencies, repositioning of antenna radiation pattern in elevation, state-of-the-art components, compression of received signals, high resolution and power potential, automatic local rejection of active and passive jamming, efficient rejection of echo-signals from underlying surface, immunity from meteorological clutter, rejection of low-velocity targets, high accuracy coordinates determination, automatic gain control of receiving channels and constant false-alarm rate processing.

Rusky · 01-19-2006, 20:17 PM

And here is something else i posted eariler on both of those radars:

Quote:

The latest novelties, the radar sets, types 55Zh6-1 and 1L13-3, were shown twice, in 1992 and 1993, at Nizhni Novgorod

International Fair and at MOSAEROSHOW exhibition in Moscow. They attracted the interest of experts at the recent exhibition of weaponry in Abu-Dhabi.

Times have changed and now the plant can openly demonstrate its
weaponry and offer it for sale. Now, let us consider the specifics of the radars, which impressed the specialists, both Russian and foreign, and led them to be frequent guests at the plant ever since. The 55Zh6-1 is a high tech, ground-based, three-coordinate circular scanner set operating in the meter-wave band.

It detects current (and future) airplanes, helicopters, cruise missiles,
balloons and other air objects in the Diagram depicting the operation of
55Zh6-1 and 1L13-3 meter-wave radarface of the most intensive clutter
and electronic countermeasures.

Both radar function in the meter-wave band makes it invulnerable to homing and antiradar missiles effective in other wavebands. Secondly, the radar can detect so-called "invisible" aircraft, including STEALTH technology planes. Indeed, this aircraft's invisibility is based on its special shape, which produces an extremely small signal return. In the meter-wave band used in radar technology, an aircraft's size is commensurate with wavelength, and its shape is no longer important. The "invisibility" of such aircraft is also due to their radio-absorbent coating.

However, to attain a marked decrease in "visibility" in the meter-wave band, one must ensure a substantial increase in the thickness of the "smearing".

This inevitably ends up with a greater mass of the aircraft and, consequently, a degradation in its flying characteristics.

The radar reveals its reliability in all meteorological conditions. It ensures fail-proof performance at minus 50 °C and can withstand almost unlimited heat.

Environmental humidity doesn't affect its performance. An apparently cumbersome antenna mast retains its serviceability under conditions of an ice-slick and 35 m/s wind.

The radar reveals good mobility. Its structures, devices and mechanisms are arranged on eight semi-trailers towed by trucks and can be moved by rail, air and water. It can be set up by a crew within less than 24 hours (22 hours, to be precise) without preliminary training, by merely looking in the manual. After turning on the power, it is operational within seconds.

The radar may be controlled equally well from the radar post located in the van and a remote control station equipped with seats for the commander (or operations duty officer), guidance navigator and operator. The remote
station contains radar control equipment and three indicators. It uses a cable link and is effective at a distance of 1km from the radar. In addition, it allows connection of another similar radar.

The radar displays target position in a three coordinate system.
Its coverage is 500 km in range, 40 km in height (16 deg. in
elevation) and is unlimited in azimuth. The guaranteed detection
ranges for a fighter flying at altitudes of 10,000 m and 20,000 m
are 300 km and 400 km, respectively; the targets flying at an
altitude of 500 m can be detected with confidence at a distance
of at least 65 km. It has a fighter detection ceiling of 60 km. As
well as the numerous indisputable advantages of the meter-wave
band, the radar also preserves a coordinate measuring accuracy.
The rms errors do not exceed 500 m in range, 850 m in height
and 24 in azimuth.

The electronic altimeter determines target elevation as well as range and azimuth, and also ensures a fairly high rate of output of the coordinates in two modes: in semi-automatic mode, when the operator singles out the targets for tracking, and in automatic mode - the coordinates of the locked-on targets are produced by a special computer. By sending an interrogation radio signal via the "Parol" (password) IFF system, the target can be identified to establish its national status.

It also provides for an air situation simulator, which displays the picture on an indicator screen without emitting radio pulses.

This is extremely useful during the training of radar crews. It also comprises a built-in functional test and diagnostics system. Information can be obtained on full readiness of the radar for operation or location of a trouble within the shortest possible time. As the equipment is built of units and the optimum number of spares is furnished with a set of spare parts and accessories, the location and replacement of the faulty component do not affect, for all practical purposes, the promptness of the crew's actions.

The radar may be supplied with electrical power from industrial mains. If
such a power source is not available, it can be powered by a self-contained power supply system, consisting of two Diesel-driven power plants (four 100-kW and three 50-kW Diesel-generator sets, including the reserve ones) and a distributor-converter. The self-contained system is energized and controlled from the radar post.

The radar's designers took into account safety and life-support systems
and ensured that comfortable conditions were provided for the crew. The
hermetic sealing of the work stations and equipment used to clean the outside air provide reliable protection for the crew against the ingress of the chemical and radioactive agents. The radar boasts an effective fire-protection system. An air conditioning system contributes to the work's convenience during combat operations.

The other meter-wave band radar, 1L13-3, is successfully employed to monitor air space and integrated in a system used to ensure air traffic control of military and civilian targets. It may also be used in an automated air defense or air force control system, or may be employed independently (e.g., as part of a rapid deployment force).

The radar is highly, mobile: its equipment is arranged on three trucks and
one trailer. The crew sets up the radar equipment within 45 min. The
radar makes it possible to feed at a high rate data on the positions of
flying targets in two dimensions: in azimuth (unlimited) and in range (up to
300 km). The highest altitude a fighter aircraft can be detected at is 27
km. Like the 55Zh6-1, the 1L13-3 is equipped with an automatically
controlled anti-jamming system, which uses multi-channel self-balancing
and digital scan-mode selection equipment. It is also provided with
monitoring and automatic trouble location equipment. The radar may be
powered from the industrial mains or itsown electric power plant,
comprising two 30-kW Diesel-generator sets.

The air conditioners guarantee operators' comfort, while the automatic
fire-fighting system and filtering-and-ventilating units ensure their safety.

Defcon 6 · 01-19-2006, 20:20 PM

Quote:

How does any of this disproove anything said in that article about the fact that F-22 can infact be seen by radar and has plenty of bugs? As well as its use of primitive microchips back in 2000.

Your article was not an official anything. The whole idea is ridiculous. I have a technical report concerning it's stealth tech. You gave nothing. Those articles you posted are basically completely false. The senate did not make the statements you said they did, the aircraft procurement numbers are wrong. Pretty much everything is completely irroneous nonsense.

Quote:

This is unrelated to anything. Yes those statements i made were stated by the Senate.

The senate never made those statements. If you think you can counter this, please give us the date, the senate assembly number and give us a link to a web source in which the senate is quoted as saying anything of the such.

Quote:

You have disprooved nothing about the stealth capabilities of F-22 my article talked about.

Your article didn't say nything that could be taken into context. There was nothing technical about that article. In fact, that article seemed to be completely fabricated.

Quote:

It was outdated, it was given to them in the 80s and 70s and even then it was not made just for them. Today's Russian PVO equipment can shoot any modern aircraft out of the sky at 3 times the range of the best US system.

Thats funny, Yugoslavia had a modern Soviet IADS and didn't manage to do anything of th sort, especially vs stealth!

Defcon 6 · 01-19-2006, 20:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rusky

When did i talk about China's airforce? Quote me.

I said-
Quote:

Quote:

Stupidest statement I've ever seen. China has the largest air force in the world.

then you said quote-

Quote:

Really? Stupidest statement you ever heard? You never read your own statements?

Rusky · 01-19-2006, 20:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Defcon 6

I said-
Quote:

then you said quote-

Yes, but why did you start talking about Chinese air force? What statement by me did you reply in the first place?

Rusky · 01-19-2006, 20:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Defcon 6

Your article was not an official anything. The whole idea is ridiculous. I have a technical report concerning it's stealth tech. You gave nothing. Those articles you posted are basically completely false. The senate did not make the statements you said they did, the aircraft procurement numbers are wrong. Pretty much everything is completely irroneous nonsense.

I gave you everything you need. My article talks about 1L13-3 and 55ZH6-1 radars both of which can detect stealth aircraft, my articles explained exactly why they can detect stealth aircraft, and i just given you more sources.

Quote:

The senate never made those statements. If you think you can counter this, please give us the date, the senate assembly number and give us a link to a web source in which the senate is quoted as saying anything of the such.

I am going to look for it.

Quote:

Your article didn't say nything that could be taken into context. There was nothing technical about that article. In fact, that article seemed to be completely fabricated.

Nothing technical? Did you even read about the radars?

Quote:

Thats funny, Yugoslavia had a modern Soviet IADS and didn't manage to do anything of th sort, especially vs stealth!

The prototype of a meter bandwave radar was tested in Yugoslavia as a result an F-117 was shot down. What are you talking about? Did you not hear that an F-117 was shot down? Is this really news to you?

Here, read:

http://www.aeronautics.ru/f117down.htm

Oh wait, it says that it was detected by an old 50s Soviet radar which was using broad wave radar technology, the same kind the newer far more advanced 1L13-3 and 55ZH6-1 radar are using.

and here is a BBC link if you don't trust the first one.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/305973.stm

Defcon 6 · 01-19-2006, 20:31 PM

Quote:

I gave you everything you need. My article talks about 1L13-3 and 55ZH6-1 radars both of which can detect stealth aircraft, my articles explained exactly why they can detect stealth aircraft, and i just given you more sources.

No you didn't give me any sources. I asked for web links, instead you copy and paste something.

And you can "explain" all you want, but those radars aren't going to be able to track stealth aircraft to any effective degree. Nobody on this board believes you except for perhaps Lurker and Garry or whoever he is. Lurker on the other hand won't make any concrete statements about the articles and won't back you up on anything you have said. And Garry just sits around bad mouthing anyone who isn't from Russia.

Gets the sources, then I'll talk to you.

Quote:

I am going to look for it.

You won't find it.

Quote:

Nothing technical? Did you even read about the radars?

Not combat tested, didn't say anything about B-2's showing up on radar as as big as a boeing 737. Again your previous statements conflict with the ones you are making now.

Defcon 6 · 01-19-2006, 20:35 PM

Alright, I'll conclude that it was probably a F-117 that was shot down. Not impossible of course, but then again, out of the hundred of sorties the F-117's flew, only ONE was shot down.

Just for refference, all stealth aircraft show up on radar. The signatures are just too small to track

Rusky · 01-19-2006, 20:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Defcon 6

No you didn't give me any sources. I asked for web links, instead you copy and paste something.

And you can "explain" all you want, but those radars aren't going to be able to track stealth aircraft to any effective degree. Nobody on this board believes you except for perhaps Lurker and Garry or whoever he is. Lurker on the other hand won't make any concrete statements about the articles and won't back you up on anything you have said. And Garry just sits around bad mouthing anyone who isn't from Russia.

Gets the sources, then I'll talk to you.

But i did, just recently, i posted two other sources. Also can you find me anything that goes against what is said about those radars in the link i pasted? Also i justed pasted the lin about F-117, the US air force admitts that stealth is vulnerable to a broad length radar waves the same kind the new Russian radars are using, and so did the old one that detected the F-117.

Quote:

You won't find it.

We'll see.

Quote:

Not combat tested, didn't say anything about B-2's showing up on radar as as big as a boeing 737. Again your previous statements conflict with the ones you are making now.

Where did that happen? Cause a 50s radar can detect F-117 that means that a new radar can't detect B-2? What?

Quote:

Post a link to it. In otherwords, prove it. And don't give us some .ru address. Give us something that actually exists.

Whatever your prejudice, warfare.ru is one of the best reference sites on the net, its upwhere with globalsecurity and airwar.ru (which has won awards from the international community). Also i believe i just did. I edited me previous post.

Rusky · 01-19-2006, 20:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Defcon 6

Alright, I'll conclude that it was probably a F-117 that was shot down. Not impossible of course, but then again, out of the hundred of sorties the F-117's flew, only ONE was shot down.

Just for refference, all stealth aircraft show up on radar. The signatures are just too small to track

This one was caught by a 50s radar, the new ones are better, for example the 55ZH6-1 tracks targets in 3 dimensions. Just read the original article again about how all of this works or do some of your own research if you don't believe me.

Rusky · 01-19-2006, 20:40 PM

Also the 50s radar is what the west claims, this is what Russia has admitted about the incident:

Quote:

Senior Russian aerospace officials admitted that they are testing new SAM missiles against the F-117 that was shot down by Serb forces in 1999. The Russians admitted that the F-117 was being used to test new anti-stealth technology and advanced missiles designed to shoot down U.S. aircraft. Russian researchers are testing components of a new air defense system against the F-117 remains.

The Russian anti-stealth tests include radio frequency seekers from surface-to-air missiles and proximity fuses for missile warheads. Russian missile makers Antey Industrial Corp. and the Almaz Central Design Bureau are using the F-117 and modified Russian-made stealth aircraft to test components for the next generation of Russian Surface to Air Missiles (SAMs).

Almaz engineers claim its S-300PMU-2 system can locate and destroy stealth targets up to 60 miles away. Almaz is currently trying to sell the S-300PMU-2 to China.

http://www.softwar.net/rfed.html

Defcon 6 · 01-19-2006, 20:40 PM

Quote:

But i did, just recently, i posted two other sources. Also can you find me anything that goes against what is said about those radars in the link i pasted? Also i justed pasted the lin about F-117, the US air force admitts that stealth is vulnerable to a broad length radar waves the same kind the new Russian radars are using, and so did the old one that detected the F-117.

And again, out of the hundreds of sorties flown by the F-117, only one was shot down. Aside from what the press says, no stealth plane is invisible on radar.

Quote:

We'll see.

Yes we will.

Quote:

Where did that happen? Cause a 50s radar can detect F-117 that means that a new radar can't detect B-2? What?

The Yugo IADS had radar as recent as 80's vintage. Not 1950's radar.

Not to mention a B-2 probably has a smaller RCS than a F117. You don't seem to understand the fundemental difference between detecting a stealth plane and tracking it.

Quote:

Whatever your prejudice, warfare.ru is one of the best reference sites on the net, its upwhere with globalsecurity and airwar.ru (which has won awards from the international community). Also i believe i just did. I edited me previous post.

No I'm not prejudiced against anything. If warfare.ru posted those articles, then they do in fact not have a clue as to what they are talking about.

Defcon 6 · 01-19-2006, 20:41 PM

I believe it when I see it

Rusky · 01-19-2006, 20:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Defcon 6

And again, out of the hundreds of sorties flown by the F-117, only one was shot down. Aside from what the press says, no stealth plane is invisible on radar.

Yes, but the Russian anti-stealth broad wave radar helps, a lot, as US has admitted.

Quote:

The Yugo IADS had radar as recent as 80's vintage. Not 1950's radar.

Not to mention a B-2 probably has a smaller RCS than a F117. You don't seem to understand the fundemental difference between detecting a stealth plane and tracking it.

I repeat the 50s thing is what western press says, Russia admitts that they were testing new stuff.

Quote:

No I'm not prejudiced against anything. If warfare.ru posted those articles, then they do in fact not have a clue as to what they are talking about.

The article i started this thread with was posted on the site's forum by an individual user, not on the actual site. Plus all the info about the radars is still correct whatever way you look at it.

Actually you should check it out, the site has loads of videos and pics on both Russian and US aircraft, tanks, ships, guns, everything.

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01-19-2006, 20:13 PM	#62 (permalink)
Rusky Patron Join Date: 01-13-06 Posts: 271	http://www.milparade.com/catalog/part4/radars.shtml here is one link thats for 55ZH6-1 NEBO mobile metric-wave 3-D radar. The metric wave allows it to detect stealth aircraft look for an explanation in my original post. This is a truck radar, but the thing is, if F-22 is detected by this thing that info can be easily transfered to the pilot in the jet fighter. and here is a good one on http://warfare.ru/?linkid=2194&catid=251 NEBO-SV (1L13-3) Mobile 2-D VHF Band Radar System quote from the link: Superior Detection Performance Superior long-range detection of any air targets including those manufactured according to STEALTH technology is achieved due to clever integration of advanced factors, such as operation in metric wave band of radiated frequencies, repositioning of antenna radiation pattern in elevation, state-of-the-art components, compression of received signals, high resolution and power potential, automatic local rejection of active and passive jamming, efficient rejection of echo-signals from underlying surface, immunity from meteorological clutter, rejection of low-velocity targets, high accuracy coordinates determination, automatic gain control of receiving channels and constant false-alarm rate processing.

01-19-2006, 20:35 PM	#69 (permalink)
Defcon 6 Contributor Join Date: 09-12-05 Location: Illinois, U.S Posts: 659	Alright, I'll conclude that it was probably a F-117 that was shot down. Not impossible of course, but then again, out of the hundred of sorties the F-117's flew, only ONE was shot down. Just for refference, all stealth aircraft show up on radar. The signatures are just too small to track

01-19-2006, 20:41 PM	#74 (permalink)
Defcon 6 Contributor Join Date: 09-12-05 Location: Illinois, U.S Posts: 659	I believe it when I see it

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