Thread: China working on new "Super-10"

Its seems small upgrade. More thrust & TVC both of which russians will provide. If the same upgrade is done on chinese engine, than it could be consider big. Also avionics shouldnt change for such a new plane.

Originally Posted by tphuang

...That's why WS-10A is probably closer to American engines than AL-31FN.

ROFL

Originally Posted by tphuang

That's a myth. Russians tend to charge China more than India, but it doesn't offer any less. Tu-22M3 and Tu-95 were both offered to China. Tu-95 wasn't even offered to India. Su-35 and Su-33 are both offered to China. Su-35 has the best Russian radar industry has to offer. The Pero phased array radar upgrade was offered to the Chinese flankers, which would've made it actually achieve similar numbers to N-011M. China bought mkk because it was readily available and could be produced fast. China has a policy to not buy anything that is not in Russian service. So as a result, it gets not so amazing product.

What the Russians don't offer to China but offer to India is ToT. But that's more due to China's consistent habit of not living up to the ToT agreement.

Will not argue with you here..... I have only my bit of the picture and it looks from that bit that Security Counsil has policy of limiting some advance weapons. Flankers are being produced by two independent producers - one is stated owned Sukhoi Holding and another is private Irkut Corporation. I know that it is actually big surpirse to most of people outside of the industry but Sukhoi Holding is producing LESS CAPABLE AND CHEAPER VERSIONS OF FLANKER. While most advanced model is being produced by Corporation Irkut. I am not an engineer... and rely on what Irkut is telling to its investors..... seems like their MKI is more advanced than MKK..... Irkut explained that they were forbidden to sell to China and offered to focus on other countries.... India..... Malaisia..... Singapore (lost)..... Thailand..... all the countries where THERE IS AN OPEN competition.

I did not head that PESA was offered to China......

In general.... I think that there is no reason to be afraid that China would attack Russia with Russian made jets..... They know that this will not work.... Hence this assumption is wrong.

ps. Indians paid more for their MKI per aircraft than Chinese paid for their MKK.... for example they bought less advanced version of AL-31F engine for less money from Salut NPO while Indians preferred more advanced engine from Ufa Motors at approximatelly 20% higher price.

Heres the lastest news on AL-31FN-M1 engines for j-10

link

Chinese J-10 gets power boost
Production examples of China’s J-10 fighter will be powered by an increased thrust version of the AL-31FN engine with a 29,800lb (132kN) output and thrust-vectoring control. Deliveries of the new powerplant could start later this year.

Yuri Eliseev, general director of Moscow-based engine builder MMPP Salyut, says the AL-31FN M1 has completed state acceptance flight tests and should receive official export approval later this year, clearing the way to begin deliveries to China.

Salyut is under contract to produce 100 M1-standard engines for Beijing under a deal worth $300 million, and has already delivered 60 27,600lb-rated AL-31FNs without thrust vectoring to power early examples of the J-10.

The new AL-31FN M1 features a larger low-pressure compressor, full-authority digital engine control and has a thrust-vectoring nozzle developed jointly by Salyut and Klimov. The powerplant has so far been qualified for a 750h interval before overhaul, with a goal of increasing this to 1,000h for China. The engine has a design life of 2,000h.

Salyut is, meanwhile, continuing work on M2 and M3 variants of the AL-31F, with benchtesting on both designs scheduled to start during 2006.

VLADIMIR KARNOZOV/MOSCOW

Originally Posted by Garry

Will not argue with you here..... I have only my bit of the picture and it looks from that bit that Security Counsil has policy of limiting some advance weapons. Flankers are being produced by two independent producers - one is stated owned Sukhoi Holding and another is private Irkut Corporation. I know that it is actually big surpirse to most of people outside of the industry but Sukhoi Holding is producing LESS CAPABLE AND CHEAPER VERSIONS OF FLANKER. While most advanced model is being produced by Corporation Irkut. I am not an engineer... and rely on what Irkut is telling to its investors..... seems like their MKI is more advanced than MKK..... Irkut explained that they were forbidden to sell to China and offered to focus on other countries.... India..... Malaisia..... Singapore (lost)..... Thailand..... all the countries where THERE IS AN OPEN competition.

I did not head that PESA was offered to China......

In general.... I think that there is no reason to be afraid that China would attack Russia with Russian made jets..... They know that this will not work.... Hence this assumption is wrong.

ps. Indians paid more for their MKI per aircraft than Chinese paid for their MKK.... for example they bought less advanced version of AL-31F engine for less money from Salut NPO while Indians preferred more advanced engine from Ufa Motors at approximatelly 20% higher price.

No, in general, the Russians barely break even on some of the Indian contracts (probably because of the relationship between the Russians and Indians). On the other hand, the contracts between Russians/Chinese are quite profitable. Just look at the 956EM and Talwar project. It cost China 1.4 billion to get 2 956EM and cost India 1 billion to get 3 Talwar. You can easily argue that the 3 Talwar would bring better combat capability than the 2 956EM.

Just to clear things up a little bit, this kanwa article stated that the Russians lifted the export restriction on Pero radar as early as 2003 http://www.kanwa.com/free/2003/10/e1027a.htm
In 2004, Zhuk-msf (the most advanced Russian radar, although not in service yet) was brought to the Zhuhai airshow.

As for the Irkut vs Knaapo argument, that's a misconception also. Irkut mainly builds flankers that have two pilots in tandem seating like ubk and such. Knaapo builds single seated fighters. Originally, mkk was also supposed to be built in IAPO, but China protested to the Russians to get it built at knaapo.
http://www.china-defense.com/aviatio...lankers02.html
"The PRC required that KnAAPO be the executor of the contract, instead of IAPO which the Sukhoi has assigned SU-30 two seater construction."
As I said, the latest su-35 and su-27kub are offered to China. Those planes are definitely higher on the list than su-30mki. Su-35bm is considered to be the definitive flanker. su-27kub is built with side by side seating like su-34. Think about it this way, just because China cannot buy planes from other countries, that does not mean it will import them from Russia. Clearly, China has refused to purchase more flankers of the mkk series from Russia, so Russia is forced to ante up more.

Originally Posted by tphuang

As I said, the latest su-35 and su-27kub are offered to China. Those planes are definitely higher on the list than su-30mki.

What do you mean by higher on the list?

Originally Posted by indianguy4u

What do you mean by higher on the list?

less likely to be offered, higher in capability.

Originally Posted by tphuang

less likely to be offered, higher in capability.

Higher in capability in what respect to MKI?

Originally Posted by indianguy4u

Higher in capability in what respect to MKI?

for su-35bm: better engine + better airframe + usaged of KS-172 + better radar + better payload + reduced RCS features
There is a nice thread on afm on this http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=52019
su-27kub: it being a naval version, using su-34 type of side by side seating and getting equipped with zhuk-msf.

Anyone knows about this plane the Seriinji F-CK-1A? Looks like the fusion of an F-18 with an F-5 and F-16

It developed by Taiwan, claimed to be as good as f16 c/d.